Chat: Sat Mar 04 11:29:35 2006

Session Start: Sat Mar 04 11:29:35 2006
Session Ident: #knownspace
[11:29] * Now talking in #knownspace
[11:29] * SeanSleep is now known as SeanStore
[11:29] * Sean1783 sets mode: +o SeanStore
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[12:27] * SeanStore is now known as SeanS
[12:54] * NickE has joined #knownspace
[12:54] <NickE> hi?
[12:55] <NickE> back later (still no Skype :-) 42 today!
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[14:05] <Sean1783> hi tanada
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[14:07] * NickE has joined #knownspace
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[14:08] <Sean1783> hi nick
[14:08] <Sean1783> sorry i missed you earlier... was taking out some trash
[14:08] <NickE> hmm, now why's it done that?
[14:08] <NickE> Hi mate
[14:09] <Sean1783> dont know why it did that.
[14:09] <NickE> Going to be in and out tonight probably
[14:09] <Sean1783> k. did you get my dr who email?
[14:09] <NickE> Had a brief power out earlier but not while I was connected
[14:09] <Sean1783> oh, installing a MB for a customer so i am kinda distracted ;)
[14:10] <NickE> um today?
[14:10] <Sean1783> right now
[14:10] <NickE> just checking
[14:10] <Sean1783> almost done. windows booting so thats a good sign
[14:12] <NickE> I thought that episode had been long lost (lots of early VT was wiped over "cos we'll never need to repeat that"
[14:13] <Sean1783> the guy that posted the episode said that some were 'lost from the bbc archive'
[14:13] <NickE> That was the one where Susan's teachers find out about her and they all go back to prehistoric times
[14:13] <Sean1783> yes
[14:14] <NickE> "Lost" = VT wiped and reused unfortunately
[14:14] <Sean1783> hmm, looks like windows decided it didnt like the new motherboard and now it has to be 'activated' again
[14:16] <NickE> been listing to my bro moaning about windoze several times today (UNIX dude)
[14:17] <NickE> Oh man, I can hear the steak cooking! (birthday dinner, yum)
[14:17] * Lensman has joined #knownspace
[14:17] <NickE> Hi dave
[14:18] <Lensman> Hi fen!
[14:18] <Sean1783> hi dave
[14:18] <NickE> (there's only 2 of us actually, eddy's asleep :-)
[14:19] <NickE> and out alter egos are quiet at the moment :-)
[14:19] <NickE> our
[14:20] <Lensman> Whenever I look in this chatroom there are always 2 here. I think that's CrazyEddy and SeanS? So I guess they're here only in spirit.
[14:20] <Sean1783> got to grab a network cable... hopefully i wont accidently power off the server while reaching down behind everything
[14:20] <Sean1783> i am here... just working on a pc at the moment
[14:20] <SeanS> see
[14:20] <NickE> Well Sean's machine is running the room and Eddy is just always logged in
[14:21] <Lensman> So Sean is being schizo today... ;)
[14:21] <Sean1783> pretty much
[14:21] <NickE> and I got logged in twice somehow
[14:22] <Lensman> So is there a topic of discussion yet?
[14:22] <NickE> Gotta split for a while, food ready
[14:22] <NickE> Food?
[14:22] <NickE> L8R
[14:23] <Lensman> Bye Nick
[14:23] <Sean1783> i hate microsoft
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[14:26] <Sean1783> dang activation stuff every time you make a decent hardware change
[14:26] * gfish has joined #knownspace
[14:26] <gfish> Heyas
[14:26] <Sean1783> hello
[14:27] <Lensman> I was very glad to see one of the New England states... Mass? ...whose state gov't decided to adopt Linux. I hate to think our tax dollars are going to support Microsoft, nor do I think our gov't should put inself in the position of being forced to upgrade its software at the whim of a private company.
[14:27] <Lensman> Welcome Gfish
[14:28] <Sean1783> i agree
[14:28] <Sean1783> almost done being schizo
[14:29] <Lensman> But Microsoft has taken Massacheusets(?) to court to stop them. That raises my pro-libertarian ire.
[14:31] <Lensman> Anybody here use Linux? I'm using Windows myself. Can't run my games on Linux, and I'm not sure about the functionality of Linux' clone of WordPerfect either.
[14:31] <Sean1783> all of my machines at least dual boot to linux
[14:32] <gfish> All my servers are linux, and a desktop that I've used a lot less since getting a laptop from work.
[14:33] <Lensman> I have a friend who has tried to talk me into converting. Maybe I should try the dual boot thing.
[14:33] <gfish> More Linux (or BSD) boxes in the house than Windows, though that is counting the servers I colo for friends.
[14:34] <Sean1783> dual booting works well. suse linux had no problem resizing the existing partition to make space available to linux
[14:36] <Sean1783> ok... back to the media room
[14:36] * Sean1783 has quit IRC ("")
[14:37] <SeanS> back to a single personality
[14:38] <gfish> So what are people up to today?
[14:38] <Lensman> Anyone else play the old computer game "7th Guest"? Whenever I see a "so-and-so has left the room" message I think of how when you'd leave the game it would scream "Come baaaaack!" at you. :)
[14:39] <SeanS> never played that one
[14:39] <SeanS> i was swapping a motherboard for a customer
[14:40] <SeanS> now i am sitting in front of the tv
[14:40] * Retrieving #knownspace modes...
[14:40] <Lensman> What specs does the customer have? ;)
[14:40] <gfish> I have some tiles to replace in the bathroom. fun fun fun.
[14:40] * SeanS changes topic to 'Welcome to @knownspace!! The Larry Niven chat channel.'
[14:41] <SeanS> its an emachine
[14:41] <SeanS> damn
[14:41] * SeanS changes topic to 'Welcome to #knownspace!! The Larry Niven chat channel.'
[14:42] <SeanS> he fried a power supply and it took the MB with it. back up and running now tho
[14:45] <SeanS> out to slap linux on it and freak the guy out... nah better not
[14:45] <SeanS> ought
[14:45] * Harry_Red has joined #knownspace
[14:45] <SeanS> Hello Frank
[14:46] <Harry_Red> Hi Sean.
[14:47] <Harry_Red> Having problems this morning.
[14:47] <Harry_Red> Hi All.
[14:47] <Harry_Red> I miss much?
[14:47] <Lensman> Hi Harry.
[14:48] <gfish> We were just discussing our incredibly exciting plans for the day.
[14:48] <SeanS> nick edwards popped in for a while. said he would be in and out
[14:48] <Harry_Red> I finally got TRACO TAVERN... Peg grabbed it so I haven't been able to read it yet.
[14:48] * Tanada has joined #knownspace
[14:49] <Harry_Red> Hi Tanada.
[14:49] <SeanS> hi tanada
[14:51] <SeanS> dont everybody type at once ;)
[14:52] <Harry_Red> Has anyuone but me noticed how Anti-Science most "Science Fiction" films are?
[14:53] <SeanS> such as 'the core' and 'the day after tomorrow'?
[14:53] <Harry_Red> Movies Like MAGMA claiming that Extream Volcanic Activity was caused by Man made pollution... Yeah Sean them too.
[14:54] <SeanS> or any movie where the solution to the end of mankind is to throw a nuke or a computer virus at it
[14:54] <Harry_Red> It's even slopped over into STARGATE SG1. Where a planet had increased tectonic activity due to "Improper" use of technology.
[14:55] <Harry_Red> Just about...
[14:55] <Tanada> hey its working now, Hi everyone!
[14:55] <Harry_Red> Then we have all the monster movies. Like CARNISAUR, and all the rest. Sheesh!
[14:56] <SeanS> sci fi channel showed 3 carnisour movies back to back this morning. i did not watch
[14:56] <Tanada> yeah, Hollywood hates Science, they felt stoopid in all those classes the geeks excelled at
[14:56] <Harry_Red> Nore did I Sean.
[14:56] <Lensman> I enjoyed "Core" on the level of super-science. A blast from the past as it were. Not all SF is hard SF. But I agree on "Day after Tomorrow". There's no way a new ice age could happen that fast.
[14:57] <Tanada> I was at work ;)
[14:57] <gfish> Though the geological history suggests they can happen within a matter of 20-30 years...
[14:57] <Tanada> a huge difference in how you deal with a multi decade onset and a multi day onset
[14:58] <Lensman> Gfish: Really? Last I'd heard it was about a century.
[14:58] <Harry_Red> Yeah Lensman. As if Geological change notices 10 years as relevent.
[14:58] <Tanada> in terms of relocation and rebuilding your civilization
[14:59] <gfish> That's the most recent news, anyway. And we might be finding out in a couple years. As silly as the onset speed was, the overall scenario in Day After Tomorrow is entirely plausible.
[14:59] <Tanada> you know i laughed out loud in The Day After Tomorrow when Mexico refused to let USA 'refugee's' in
[14:59] <Harry_Red> Under some conditions, a glacier can move as much as 50 ft in 10 seconds... but that's RARE!
[14:59] <SeanS> that was funny tanada
[14:59] <Tanada> you don;t say no to people with desperation and lots of nuclear weapons
[14:59] * oliver has joined #knownspace
[14:59] <Harry_Red> And lots of presonel weapons either.
[14:59] <SeanS> Hello Oliver
[15:00] <oliver> Hello
[15:00] <Harry_Red> Hi OLIVER!]
[15:01] <SeanS> ok, tis 3pm eastern. official chat start time
[15:01] <Tanada> hi oliver
[15:01] <Lensman> I'm currently reading _Collapse_ by Jared Diamond, a sequel to his _Guns, Germs & Steel_. Rather sobering how so many societies have collapsed due to their ruining their own environment. And he pretty well blows away the myth of the "noble savage" protecting his own environment.
[15:01] <gfish> Excellent book
[15:01] <Harry_Red> I just sent an announcement of the Chat.
[15:02] <Tanada> Speaking of LN lol, anyone want to see followups by Larry of Brenda?
[15:02] <SeanS> havent read BHM yet
[15:02] <Lensman> "Larry of Brenda"?
[15:02] <Tanada> You should read Crichton's State Of Fear, it is fiction but gives you new ways to think about the problems
[15:03] <Harry_Red> I believe that some of the Se Asian Civializations did it to themselves... The Ankoe-Wat for one.
[15:03] <Tanada> Larry's short story Brenda about the Sauron woman by the same name who escaped to Tanith
[15:03] <Tanada> and had lots of kids
[15:03] <SeanS> oh, Brenda was a great short story. misunderstood you
[15:04] <Lensman> Haiti is an excellent case study. The Haiti side of the island is one of the poorest nations on earth but the other side of the island is doing well. Haiti has severe deforestation and soil erosion.
[15:04] <Harry_Red> The Crichton book is a good one. It also points out that the doom sayers are willing to use any tactic to further their cause(s).
[15:04] <SeanS> the engineer on the racing yaht in gripping hand was a brenda decendent
[15:04] <Tanada> I think i have all of the War World books, Brenda is part of those as well as Jane's Fort War by Harry Red
[15:04] <Tanada> yep Sean, thats who I am talking about
[15:05] <SeanS> i know ;)
[15:05] <Harry_Red> Thanks TTanada.
[15:05] <gfish> The Crichton book is fiction. Referencing it doesn't really mean anything.
[15:06] <Lensman> I'm not sure I have that story. I take it "Brenda" hasn't appeared in a Niven collection?
[15:06] <Harry_Red> It's a WAR WORLD story.
[15:06] <SeanS> its in n-space or playgrounds of the mind i believe
[15:06] <Tanada> YW, I liked Jane a lot....wish you would write a sequel about her great to the nth descendents when the Second Empire arrives to oust the Saurons
[15:07] <oliver> Does it oust them or do they leave before that?
[15:07] <Lensman> Well I guess the fact that I don't remember the story says something...
[15:07] <Tanada> Like I said gfish, it gave me new ways to think about the issues
[15:08] <Tanada> Oliver, it has not yet been written how Haven is reincorporated into the Second Empire, it could be peaceful (The Saurons join as a member planet) or it could be War, or they could be Outies
[15:08] <Lensman> "Brenda" is in _N-Space_,thanx.
[15:08] <Harry_Red> On HAVEN, the Sauron problem is solved by genetic drift... The Saurons have interbread with thehuman population that the t populations are staarting to converge with the Sauron strain diluting.
[15:09] <Tanada> And of course the Sauron and Fryystaat genes are coming to dominate most of the successful nation states
[15:09] <oliver> Does this imply that the Sauron control has been broken?
[15:09] <Harry_Red> Yupper Tanada.
[15:10] <Tanada> The Saurons only ever actually controlled about 1/3rd of Haven, they never had enough manpower to complete conquest
[15:10] <Harry_Red> It implies that the solution for the Saurons is the same one that was applied to the Mongols by the CHinese. ;-)
[15:10] <Tanada> Frystaat descendents controll about 1/6th and the rest are small nationality groups
[15:11] <oliver> But the Saurons practice eugenics on themselves. Are they forced to stop?
[15:11] <Lensman> It's true that the greens will go to any lengths to preach their message. It's also true that those who want to ignore the effects of environmental damage are able to rationalize and deny just about anything. Sadly there's a severe lack of honest debate on the subject. Altho from Diamond's book there shouldn't be much of a debate... or rather, the debate should be over *what* we should be doing to reduce environmental
[15:11] <Harry_Red> About the time of the Second Empire, most of the national groups ar merging. A working Melting Pot.
[15:11] <Tanada> I agree Harry, no matter how careful they are they keep falling in love with the natives, which makes absolute culling difficult
[15:12] <Tanada> hence the 'culling fields' where their outcasts can be adopted by the 'normal' relatives of the tribute maidens
[15:12] <gfish> There isn't any debate in scientific circles, or outside the US. Climate change is happening. Hell, even *CNN* has stopped bothering to spin their articles against it.
[15:13] <Tanada> I always beleived in Climate Change DUH, climate means long term trends, not fixed unchanging conditions
[15:14] <Harry_Red> Lensman, Jerry Pournelle says that somereal and unbiast study should be done on Global Warming... Better to know what's really happening and what actions to take rather than rely on political solutions imposed by (proven) Biased 25 year old research.
[15:14] <Tanada> the question is, how much change is man forced, how much is solar, and is their anything we can or should do about it?
[15:14] <oliver> Why do they need tribute maidens at all? And why isn't isolating the women enough?
[15:15] <Lensman> By "environmental damage" I don't necessarily mean global warming. Deforestation, pollution of and depletion of groundwater... there are more serious problems than warming the planet a few degrees. After all that's happened repeatedly in the past with no long-term ill effects.
[15:15] <Tanada> They use tribute maidens because they produce more male than female babies, it is a side effect of their genetic program
[15:15] <Harry_Red> I pointed out in several letters that there have been times when there were no icecaps on earth and the major life forms didn't use fire... They being Dinosaures.
[15:15] <Tanada> each generation they have more boys than girls born
[15:16] <gfish> That was when the continents were in a different configuration, allowing better ocean circulation from the equator to the poles.
[15:17] <gfish> Ever since Antarctica has been were it is, creating a loop around the southern pole, there have been polar caps.
[15:17] <Lensman> There's no question global warming is real. The glaciers are disappearing. But we don't have any good data on how much human-caused pollution contributes to that. This is an extremely complex problem. Heck they just disovered recently that green plants contribute about 1/3 (estimate) of the methane in the atmosphere! Methane being a greenhouse gas.
[15:17] <oliver> That means that their stable reproduction number is something like 4.x not the normal 2.1 or so. What prevents them from selective breeding?
[15:17] <Tanada> if the Saurons were smart as they think they are they could easily produce all the girls they want, each time a baby is born male take a stem cell sample, remove the Y chromosome and replace it with a second X and implant it in an ovum, stimulate it like Dolly the sheep and 9 months later you have a reverse clone of the boy
[15:18] <Harry_Red> Actually, abo0ut 100,000 years ago, there was very little Artic and Antartic Ice... Then a Global change took place. an Ice Age.
[15:18] <oliver> Are you sure about _antarctic_ ice?
[15:19] <gfish> Melting arctic ice doesn't do much. It's already floating, so melting it doesn't change ocean levels.
[15:19] <Tanada> Are you sure Harry, I thought it was 1.5 mBC, when the isthmus of Panama closed off the pacific water mixing into the Atlantic
[15:19] <Harry_Red> It was considerably less than what we have today Oliver. At least in costal areas.
[15:19] <gfish> Unless melting it can upset the thermohaline circulator in the north atlantic.
[15:19] <oliver> Selecting sperm for X chromosomes should be easily doable with a centrifuge. Anyway why do they need their surplus men to marry?
[15:19] <Lensman> I think the effect on global climate of the pattern of continents and ocean currents has been exaggerated. There's a close correlation between the bobbing up and down of the earth's axial tilt which closely matches the pattern of ice/warm ages. The eccentricity of Earth's orbit contributes to a minor extent to the pattern, too.
[15:19] <SeanS> sure it does gfish. because the ice is displacing water, when it melts the ocean level would actually go down a little
[15:20] <Tanada> Oliver, they are keeping their genetic base as wide as possible by selectively outbreeding with native maidens, then incrossing to reinforce the traits they find useful
[15:20] <Lensman> Floating ice melting doesn't do much. The Greenland and Antarctica ice caps melting will mean a LOT. And the Greenland cap IS melting. So far in Antarctica it's just the offshore ice that appears to be affected. So far...
[15:21] <Harry_Red> There is also evidence pointing to long term Solar cycles having a great effect on Earth's climate.
[15:21] <gfish> Big NASA study just came out, showing lots of Antarctic ice melting too.
[15:21] <Tanada> Lenseman, the Greenland cap is getting thicker inland and thinner around the edges, no edidence yet as to which process will win the cycle
[15:22] <Harry_Red> Tanada, the same thing is happening in Antarctica.
[15:22] <oliver> Tanada, why don't they increase their numbers until the genetic base is wide enough? Isn't the basic Sauronian genome not good enough for them?
[15:23] <Tanada> I was reading up on greenhouse gasses yesterday and learned something new (which is good), the international law has called for an end to all CFC's and their analogs because they destroy ozone as well as being very potent greenhouse gasses
[15:23] <Lensman> No, floating ice melting does *not* cause the water level to drop. Try it in your kitchen: Fill a glass with water, drop in just a few ice cubes, refill to overflowing. Let the cubes melt and you'll see the water level remains unchanged.
[15:24] <Tanada> the technologists solved the problem by inventing Sulfur Hexa-Flouride SF6, it does zero damage to the ozone layer
[15:24] <oliver> If you do this with salt water, it will expand a little. More saline water is denser.
[15:24] <Lensman> Upsetting the circulator can change regional climate, but the effect on global climate isn't that much. If heat isn't going to one area, it will go to another.
[15:24] <gfish> The only solution at this point is better technology. :)
[15:25] <Tanada> it also is an excellent greenhouse gas, much more potent than CO2 or CH4, and it has an atmospheric half life of 3500 years
[15:25] <Harry_Red> I was reading the KYOTO ACCCORDS... It turns out that countries like China have actually increased their CO2 output but they aren't subject to the Accords. Ditto India.
[15:26] <Tanada> Oliver, the Saurons on Haven were orriginally set to make Haven into their new planet, they wanted to incorporate all the useful local genes into their eugenics plans
[15:26] <Lensman> Ice caps getting thicker inland? Okay I hadn't heard that. I thought Greenland's ice cap was as think as it's gonna get; it snows inland and the force of its own weight pushes it out at the edges.
[15:26] <gfish> If the circulator is taking heat from the tropics and putting it in the northern hemisphre, how does changing where the heat go not constitute a global change?
[15:26] <Lensman> Oliver: True there is an important difference between fresh water and salt water in the oceans.
[15:27] <oliver> Tanada, so why do they keep failing? With the help of the tribute maidens, what is keeping the population from growing as much as it needs to?
[15:27] <Lensman> Harry: It's true, the countries which produce or in the near future will produce the most polution haven't signed the Kyoto Accords.
[15:28] <Tanada> gfish, when the tropical heat goes to the poles it leads to more snow, which reflects more sunlight away from Earth and lowers global irradiation
[15:29] <Harry_Red> Oliver, the Saurons have to be careful about stressing an already marginal environment... The can suppoet small population growths but not large ones.
[15:29] <Tanada> Oliver, because the 20 or so authors who wrote the stories taking place between the fall of the first Empire on Haven and the coming of the Second Empire find stories with the conflict much more interesting than just letting the Saurons win and take over
[15:30] <oliver> A few tailored bacteria. Are the Sauronians squeamish?
[15:30] <oliver> Tanada, that makes sense.
[15:30] <Lensman> If oceanic circulation was the primary cause of ice/warm ages, the periods woud correspond. They don't. Ice/warm ages happen much more frequently than continental drift. As I said, the overall cycle is the same is the tilt in Earth's axis, a cycle of about 26,000 years. There are greater and lesser warming/cooling trends outside that cycle that lessen or strenthen that cycle.
[15:30] <Harry_Red> Political Solutions rarely look towadrs the future or the next election... they try to freeze things as the surrent levels.
[15:30] <Tanada> Lol Harry, that's a red herring, they have Fusion power in their bases, they could build protocarb factories and feed livestock the protocarb and feed a billion Saurons if they wanted too
[15:30] <Harry_Red> ThT DON'T WORK.
[15:31] <Lensman> I mean, *realatively* greater and lesser. Axial tilt is the primary cause.
[15:32] <Tanada> Why not, the Codominion and the First Empire both had protocarb factories runing on Haven before the Saurons invaded and blew them all up
[15:32] <Harry_Red> Not really Tanada. Not enough Carbon available in Haven's ecosystem. No Fossil fuels. They run into a Carbon limit as to how much protocarb they can produce.
[15:32] <Tanada> Lensman, have you read Uller Uprising by Piper? Great example of a world like WeMadeIt with 90 degree axil tilt
[15:33] <Lensman> Read it twice. Piper is one of my very favorite authors. Had forgotten the 90 degree tilt tho!
[15:33] <Tanada> Always wondered if LN got the idea from Piper
[15:34] <SeanS> i will put that one on the list
[15:34] <SeanS> my to read list that is
[15:34] <Harry_Red> Ulller Uprising had a world with a 34 degree tilt. FENRIS (4 day planet) had the 89 degree axial tilt.
[15:34] <Lensman> Hard to say where LN gets his ideas. I was re-reading James Blish's _Cities in Flight_ not long ago. Their drug to arrest aging is grown in a yam...
[15:34] <Tanada> Ha HArry, Haven is covered in high scrub desseryt platuea's around the main continent, but the rift valleys have lots of arable land, and the high maountains have Dry Ice snow
[15:35] <Lensman> Harry: Ah thanx, that explains why I didn't remember tat. Have only read 4-day planet once.
[15:35] <Tanada> Uh, Harry read Uller again, the natives go from pole to pole because of the extream seasonality
[15:36] <Harry_Red> I think it was J.W. Champbell who proposed both Tidally locked "Twin" worlds and planets with extream tilts. Several authors wrote stories in both frames.
[15:36] <Tanada> Plus Haven's seas teem with life up to and including Terrestrial killer whales, and is covered with tidally heated volcanoes that belch CO2
[15:36] <Lensman> People... with spaceflight commonplace, global warming can't be much of a problem. Just put up some big solar mirrors in orbit, to shine sunlight away from or towards your planet. A thermostat you see...
[15:37] <oliver> Hm, if you have an extreme tilt, can you have polar ice?
[15:37] <Lensman> Oliver: If your year is long enuff.
[15:38] <Tanada> Oliver, the polar ice is cyclic, in the description of Uller it all boils away in mid summer, then the cap grows in Fall and becomes maximum in late winter before evaporating into water in spring and drying up in the next summer
[15:38] <Lensman> But obviously when polar ice is at its maximum on one pole, it's gone from the opposite.
[15:38] <Tanada> exactly
[15:39] <Tanada> everything has to ballance, if you are hot over here you are cold over there
[15:39] <Tanada> I learned another new fact this week, but i have not been able to confirm it
[15:39] <Tanada> is it true that Venus is tidally synchronic with Earth so that the same face is always closest to us as we pass?
[15:39] <oliver> If you cannot have glaciers on ground level, will you not have less extreme climate?
[15:40] <Lensman> Which is why I say that the ocean circulation doesn't have that much effect on global climate. Sure if it's colder up north there's more snow, but that's somewhat balanced by it being warmer elsewhere.
[15:40] * NickE has joined #knownspace
[15:41] <NickE> back
[15:41] <SeanS> wb Nick
[15:41] <Tanada> I always figured that if we get clever enough some day we will build a ring around Venus of solar sail type material spinning to keep its shape and use it to give Venus a 24 hour day night cycle
[15:41] <Lensman> If your axial tilt is extreme, you'll have extreme climate all right! Very cold winters, very hot summers, and hurricane-force winds in spring and autumn. No thanks, I prefer the mild tilt of good ol' Earth!
[15:41] <Tanada> Hi Nick
[15:41] <NickE> Hi Frank, Matt, Oliver, Tanada
[15:41] <Lensman> Tan: Cool!
[15:42] <oliver> Hello NickE
[15:42] <Tanada> Lensman, on Uller the humans prefer to like near the equator, it has the most even temperature year around
[15:43] <oliver> Well, an extreme tilt means no deserts induced by the circulation patterns.
[15:43] <Harry_Red> People... with spaceflight commonplace, global warming can't be much of a problem. Just put up some big solar mirrors in orbit, to shine sunlight away from or towards your planet./// how big would those mirrors have to be? REALLY BIG is my guess and beyond the capabilities of a planet that has a tough time keeping one manned Space Station up and running.
[15:44] <SeanS> depends on how close to the sun they are. get close enough and even a small mirror can totally block out the sun on earth. mirror might melt tho
[15:44] <NickE> Prolly right. KSRs MArs books have some good ideas for big mirrors, though beyond our current capability
[15:44] <Tanada> Your right Harry, the last firgure I saw was something like a series of 1000 1KM square mirrors would do the trick
[15:44] <Lensman> LN said in some of his old stories that Earth needed an oversized moon to strip away excess atmosphere. That idea's fallen out of favor, but I think we *do* need an oversized moon to keep Earth's axial tilt and orbital eccentricity from becoming too large. Our large moon helps stabalize both. Extreme axial tilt would make the weather much less stable, thence the ecosystem would be much less stable. We needed a stable
[15:44] <gfish> We don't even have a manned space program at the moment.
[15:45] <SeanS> we might in may
[15:45] <NickE> true enough, though at least the Chinese are having a crack at it
[15:45] * Harry_Red changes topic to 'Clones and Climate'
[15:45] <oliver> very big, but not very massive. Thin foil would do. But whom would you entrust with a mirror system that could do enormous ecological damage?
[15:45] <Tanada> Discovery (I think) is schedualed to launch around April or May to test the new new external tank foam system
[15:45] <Lensman> I'm not suggesting we have the technology at present to put up big solar mirrors. I'm suggesting the Saurons do.
[15:46] <NickE> Be good to see the shuttle back , even if only for 4 more years :-/
[15:46] <SeanS> tanada, NASA is looking at may or june to put discovery up
[15:46] <Harry_Red> Thin foil would do. But whom would you entrust with a mirror system that could do enormous ecological damage? Brennan Monster?
[15:47] <Tanada> Hell if I were the Saurons I would do a few terraforming tricks, first I would break up some of the sea water into H2 and O2 and increase the air pressure accordingly
[15:47] <Lensman> Oliver: That's a problem all right. Shifting Earth's climate will have winners and losers. Global warming will benefit Canada, for example.
[15:47] <NickE> Fair point: magnifying glass: ants ?
[15:47] <oliver> That would scream technological species to any visitor. Better scout for a new system with a regular planet.
[15:47] <Tanada> then I would add SF6 to the air in large enough quatities to green house the planet to a more human enjoyable level
[15:48] <Harry_Red> I just checked the planetary description in ULLAR UPRISING. You're right. Axis of rotation is in the same plane as the orbit.
[15:48] <Lensman> A visitor would notice our TV broadcasts long before any space mirrors. Earth shines like a small star in the radio frequency.
[15:48] <Tanada> Don;t forget Siberia will be a much nicer place on a warmer Earth as well
[15:48] <SeanS> just buy the reactionless inertialess drive from the outsiders and move the planet where you need it
[15:48] <NickE> So much for the Draco tavern then :-)
[15:49] <gfish> Yeah, when the permafrost melts and all the topsoil washes away, it'll be a great place to live.
[15:49] <Lensman> Tan: Yes. Siberia used to be the world's largest exporter of grain, before the Soviets took over. Now they are the world's largest importer...
[15:49] <gfish> You can't just flip heat switches and instantly change local climates.
[15:50] <NickE> unlike Day After Tomorow would have you believe
[15:50] <Lensman> I don't see how melting permafrost will wash away all the topsoil.
[15:50] <Tanada> Siberia is actually a fascinating region if you read about it, in a warmer world it will quickly have a population boom because ot has large untapped mineral resources and decent soil fertility, both precursors to a successful modern nation-state
[15:51] <Lensman> Tan: Sounds right to me.
[15:52] <Tanada> when permafrost melts first you get a muskeg, then a swamp. drain the swamp and you have a highly fertile arable crop land
[15:52] <Lensman> Especially if they re-introduce private farming.
[15:52] <Harry_Red> War between China and Russia over Siberia is about the first thing that would happen. Then A Nuclear winter would take care of the Global Warming problem!
[15:52] <Lensman> Oh oh, drain the swamp and you'll have the greenies all over you! <eg>
[15:53] <Tanada> like Michigan where I live, in the 1700's it was a mix of swampland and forested hills, now it is farmland and forested hills
[15:53] <Tanada> lol, the greenies can bite me, I grew up in a drained swamp, trust me a much nicer place to live
[15:53] <Harry_Red> Given the choice, I'd put all the Greenies in the swamp and let them contend with the mosquitoes.
[15:54] <NickE> :-)
[15:54] <Tanada> in Monroe Countie where I grew up way back about 150 years ago the immigrants to the region dug 10 foot deep ditches every 5 miles or so
[15:55] <Tanada> then they dug surface ditches to drain the swamp into the big ditrches and made it all farmland
[15:55] <gfish> Okay, time to start working on the tiles in the bathroom.
[15:55] <SeanS> i dont evy you gfish
[15:55] <SeanS> envy
[15:55] <NickE> There's a lot of experience in reclaiming swamps from all sorts of places
[15:55] <Lensman> I found it amusing on the Jane Seymour show, "___Quinn, Medicine Woman" how these pioneers were so concerned about the environment. Yah the pioneers were concerned all right... concerned with how to *tame* the environment, not preserve it!
[15:55] <Tanada> if you look on a topographical map we are at about 15 feet higher than Lake Eire for most of the county
[15:56] <Harry_Red> ALaska is bad enough. A Mosquito landed at an Anchorage Airport and they put 15,000 lbs of Jet Fule into it before they discovered it wasn't a 747!Q
[15:56] <Lensman> Harry: LOL! Methinks you've been reading too many Paul Bunyan stories.
[15:56] <Tanada> lol Harry
[15:57] <Harry_Red> Lensman, they were also concerned about how much land they could clear cut before winter.
[15:57] <Lensman> By Gfish. Have fun... NOT!
[15:57] <Tanada> You know Anchorage is the largetst city noth of 60 in North America? Bigger than Toledo Ohio these days and still growing fast
[15:57] <Harry_Red> Old joke updated... Originally, it was a B-17 in WW II days.
[15:58] <Harry_Red> Yeah... and climatic change is giving them a worse mosquito problem then ever before. Higher temps mean a longer breeding season for all insects.
[15:59] <Tanada> It also means a longer growing season for the root crops which are so popular in AK, not to mention the Barley
[15:59] <Harry_Red> You take the bad with the good Tanada.
[16:00] <SeanS> why isnt Carol here? is she beating the snot out of lesser martial arts students again?
[16:00] <Lensman> I don't necessarily think clear cutting to clear farmland is evil. But we need to preserve a minimum amount of area where we leave things alone, to preserve plant and animal life and thus a complex ecosystem. There are horror stories like Haiti and Easter Island, where they cut down ALL the large trees. And I mean ALL of them, so that over a dozen tree species were entirely killed off. Similarly, we've discovered tha
[16:00] <Tanada> Amen HArry, how boring is Heaven or Hell where everything is the same day in and day out?
[16:01] <NickE> Didnt she say something about the chat times being a abit awkward, at least early on/
[16:01] <Harry_Red> VEry Tanada. eternal sameness is a Hell if I ever heard of one.
[16:01] <NickE> agreed
[16:01] <NickE> viva diversity
[16:02] <SeanS> yeah... i think she did, Nick
[16:02] <Lensman> Who was it who wrote a short story about someone going to heaven, getting his harp and robes, and discovering that only the newbies stood around on clouds singing in chorus, because after a few days it got rather repititious?
[16:02] <Harry_Red> Thats why we have a 2 part or extended chat.
[16:02] <NickE> sounds good. not sure I've read it tho
[16:02] <Harry_Red> Mark Twain I think.
[16:03] <Lensman> Twain sounds right, that's just the sort of thing he'd write.
[16:04] <Tanada> Sounds like Clemens, he also wrote stories where 'colored' people were twice the population of 'whites'...upset a lot of people
[16:04] <Harry_Red> Heinlein pointed out that if Humans were taken into Heaven Whole... they'd need to install plumbing. Angels have no need of such things.
[16:04] <Tanada> they never looked at the whole world and realized how small european descent population is in the big scheme of things
[16:05] <Lensman> LOL! Yah "Job" was quite amusing.
[16:05] <NickE> Saw this today on the Bill Hicks DVD "Warning: this DVD contains everything your parents hate, everything the church is against and everything the government fears> Enjoy"
[16:05] <SeanS> i was thinking job as well
[16:05] <NickE> Relentless was the DVD, it was that or Serenity and Serenity won, today anyway :-)
[16:06] <SeanS> serenity=good movie
[16:06] <Lensman> True re: angels. Popular treatments have angels being humans who have ascended to heaven, but they're not. Angels were a separate creation.
[16:06] <NickE> Probably will watch it later
[16:06] <Tanada> you know speaking of climate controll LN wrote about a bunch of places where geo-engineering would make things more comfortable for Human colonists
[16:07] <NickE> So he did ;-)
[16:07] <Lensman> Yah Plateau is in severe need of terraforming!
[16:08] <Tanada> I wonder if earth sea life ever colonized the central ocean on Jinx, I am sure some forms could prosper on the Yeast
[16:08] <Lensman> And I still can't figure out why they colonized Jinx.
[16:08] <NickE> But that would make Mt Lookitthat uninhabitable
[16:08] <SeanS> true, nick
[16:08] <NickE> Cos it had BIG habitable bands
[16:08] <Tanada> I like Jinx, the earth normal region is close to twice the area of the Earth itself, she's a BIG planet
[16:09] <NickE> what he said
[16:09] <Lensman> Nick: Sure, you'd get some old die-hards who'd refuse to leave, just like with Mt. St. Helens.
[16:09] <Tanada> Of course as for Mount Lookitthat you could move down the flanks as the atmosphere was thinned
[16:09] <NickE> Bit steep!
[16:10] <SeanS> i thought mount lookatthat was sheer
[16:10] <NickE> But Canyonites wouldnt have a problem with it
[16:10] <Tanada> How do you know how steep it is Nick, it is not stated explicitly in A Gift From Earth
[16:10] <NickE> (used to sheer wall living)
[16:10] <Lensman> But the science... doesn't work with the description of Jinx. No way will a planet have its ends sticking up out of the atmosphere. Not unless it's made of carbon nanotubes, and I'm not sure even then. Rock DOES flow under enough pressure, which is why we don't have any mountains more than about 3 miles higher than the surrounding plains.
[16:11] <oliver> if it weren't steep, how could you jump off?
[16:11] <SeanS> i believe after the plank went off the edge, it went straight down
[16:11] <NickE> I think it is pretty much described as such somewhere in canon
[16:11] <Tanada> It could be a 45 degree slope for 1000 miles for all we know, like the Rockies falling down to the Gulf of Mexico
[16:11] <NickE> Ahem Olympus Mons?
[16:12] <Lensman> The edge of Mt. Lookithat is very sheer. Remember the story of the guy who turned his aircar upside down and fell very fast into the abyss?
[16:12] <Tanada> We know that is the case in that spot, off the gamma platuea edge or some such, but what about the other side of the land mass?
[16:12] <SeanS> dont see my copy on the shelf but i am pretty sure it was about straight down
[16:12] <Tanada> How many mountain are extream on all sides?
[16:13] <Lensman> Well look at Devil's Tower sometime.
[16:13] <SeanS> i know that there is x amount of area and that is it
[16:13] <Tanada> Do I have too, I am scared of heights ;)
[16:13] <NickE> I'll give that some areas may be shallower, but I alwys had the vision of something like a much bigger version of Devils Tower
[16:13] <Lensman> Okay you might be right, it may not be sheer all around, but that's the way it's described.
[16:14] <Tanada> I actually was thinking of Venus as a close analog, on Venus their or two small continents that stick up pretty far above the bottomlands
[16:14] <SeanS> the impression i always got from a gift from earth is basically a 3 tiered devils tower that was MUCH taller
[16:14] <NickE> Yup
[16:14] <oliver> If you had usefull flanks people would adapt to them. I dimly remember a story by Poul Anderson about that.
[16:14] <Harry_Red> I just got an E-=Mail from Larry. He said the site wasn't working for him.
[16:15] <Lensman> Suggest he use mIRC.
[16:15] <SeanS> the applet site? i dont do that. thats somebody else being helpful
[16:15] <NickE> send him this java link <http://puna.net.nz/prirc/knownspace.asp?nick=Larry>
[16:15] <NickE> Thats waht I'm using
[16:15] <NickE> Euan set it up and it works fine
[16:15] <Tanada> Lensman, the science doesn;t work for Jinx at all, I calculated the surface distortion as described, the poles are barely higher than average if they are 300 miles further from the core
[16:16] <NickE> Yeah, but its such a nice idea :-)
[16:16] <Lensman> Tan: Unusual for LN to pull such a boner in the physical sciences.
[16:17] <NickE> Early days
[16:17] <NickE> 1st novel and all
[16:17] <Tanada> as for Plateau, the only story set there was when the population was only in the low 5 figures, I am sure with 20 million or so more people the more marginal area's are being exploited
[16:17] <NickE> By the RW erea I'm sure that would be the case
[16:17] <NickE> era
[16:17] <Lensman> ? Jinx is described in LN's first novel?
[16:17] <Harry_Red> Dome Cities perhaps?
[16:18] <NickE> Yup
[16:18] <NickE> World of Ptavvs
[16:18] <Tanada> Lens, well the funny thing is Earth actually has about a 90 mile distorion and I donl;t here people at the equatror complaining about lower air pressure than the north pole gets
[16:18] <NickE> Thats where teh slowboat Kzanol steals was headed
[16:19] <Tanada> Jinx is described in detail in WORLD OF PTAVVS, his first full known space novel I think
[16:19] <Lensman> Ah yes, how quickly we forget. Or me anyway.
[16:19] <NickE> plus larry Greenberg was able to recognise whitefoods and tnuctipun technical language
[16:19] <Lensman> 90 mile distortion? I thought it was 50 miles.
[16:20] * Sean1783 has joined #knownspace
[16:20] <Tanada> 45 miles at each end I think, heck I will look it up give me a minute
[16:20] <Sean1783> from a gift from earth: Interstellar Ramscoop Robot #4, had landed on Mount Lookitthat. Only the Plateau on Mount Lookitthat was habitable. The rest of the planet was an eternal searing black calm, useless for any purpose. The Plateau was smaller than any region a colony project would settle by choice. But Inter stellar Ramscoop Robot #4 had found an habitable point, and that was all it knew.
[16:20] * Sean1783 has quit IRC ("")
[16:21] <Lensman> I'm trying to think if a whirligig world (_Mission of Gravity_) would have its equator rise out of the atmosphere. I don't think so, for the same reason that earth's distortion doesn't cause a thinner atmosphere. The same force that raises the ground level raises the atmosphere. I think.
[16:21] <Lensman> Oh you mean 45 miles x 2 = 90 miles. Okay, sure.
[16:22] * SeanS sets mode: +o Harry_Red
[16:22] <Tanada> and its worse than that Lensman, on Jinx the poles would have more mass under them because they are higher, so the gravity is higher there than anywhere else on the planet meaning the air should stick better there
[16:23] <Lensman> Yah I just re-read _World of Ptavvs_, sorry I thought you were talking about _A Gift from Earth_.
[16:23] <Lensman> Tan: LOL! I had no idea just how far Jinx is from reality...
[16:24] <SeanS> i kinda think the topic is doing what it usually does... bouncing all over the place seemingly at random ;)
[16:24] <Lensman> Sean: Sure that's normal for any chatroom with lively conversation. Wouldn't have it any other way!
[16:25] <SeanS> absolutely
[16:25] <NickE> oh yeah
[16:26] <Tanada> I just looked it up, Earth is 33.49 km larger at the equator than at the poles so it is about 50 miles total, you were right
[16:27] <Tanada> well we were talking about both colonies I thought LOL, actually three cause we started out with WeMadeIt, then drifted to Jinx and Plateau
[16:27] <Lensman> Actually I thought the Earth had a pear-shaped distortion, not just the equatorial swelling. Dunno how many km or miles that is, tho.
[16:28] <Lensman> Oh dear it just hit me... is the height of Mt. Lookitthat unrealistically high also?
[16:28] <NickE> The Tharsis bulge on Mars is pretty damn huge
[16:29] <NickE> 40 miles tall it said
[16:29] <SeanS> pretty far up i believe. i think it is the pressure that kills you as you fall off the mountain
[16:29] <Lensman> Smaller worlds conversely can have larger geographical features because of lower gravity.
[16:29] <NickE> There's that too
[16:29] <Tanada> Yup Lenseman, it is reportly 20 miles high or some such, rock just isn't hard enough for that.
[16:30] <Lensman> What's the gravity on Plateau, anyone know?
[16:30] <NickE> Lowr gravity would give you some, but prolly not that much
[16:30] <Tanada> But Plateau is suppossed to be like Haven, about .91 g which isn't all that low
[16:30] <SeanS> wouldnt olympus mars on earth collapse under its own weight?
[16:30] <NickE> its about 2/3 earth
[16:30] <SeanS> mons
[16:30] <NickE> More than We Made It which is 0.61G
[16:31] <Tanada> Depends Sean, Hawaii is the largest mountain on Earth, most of its bulk is supported by Water
[16:31] <SeanS> true
[16:31] <NickE> Would Venus dense atmo be enough to add some support?
[16:32] <NickE> I doubt it
[16:32] <NickE> other than a very tiny%
[16:32] <Lensman> Yes Olympus Mons is too high for Earth's gravity.
[16:33] <Tanada> Venus atmosphere in the bottomlands is similer to Earth sea pressure at the same depth
[16:33] <NickE> So the Plateau would be a short lived feature if it was able to form at all
[16:33] <SeanS> it would seem
[16:33] <NickE> relatively
[16:34] <Tanada> but the pressure gradient is shallower because CO2 is less dense itself, at sea level height it would be about 1200 feet earth sea pressure
[16:34] <NickE> But then arent Saturn's rings or the Red Spot on Jupter?
[16:34] <SeanS> which red spot?
[16:34] <NickE> The biggy
[16:34] <SeanS> :)
[16:35] <Tanada> What about tropical semi permanent cyclones on gas giants?
[16:35] <NickE> Not a fair comparison I know
[16:35] <Tanada> I missed something
[16:35] <oliver> Air has about 0.1% the density of water. Assuming ideal gas behavior on Venus that rises to 1%. In other words, forget it.
[16:35] <SeanS> also water doesnt compress, air does
[16:35] <NickE> Aye
[16:36] <Tanada> Water does compress, but the ratio is much smaller than air compression
[16:36] <Lensman> Looking at Dole's _Habitable Planets for Man_, over about 3 earth masses a planet begins to aquire a very thick atmosphere. So you could have an earth-like world of about 3 earth masses or slightly over, maybe 3.25. Dunno what the surface gravity would be for that.
[16:36] <NickE> would depend on density also
[16:36] <Lensman> Water compresses so very slightly that it's hard to measure, I believe.
[16:36] <Tanada> LOL, you need to know mass and density before you can say that
[16:36] <SeanS> water doesnt compress to the point that water tanks for wells have to have an air bladder inside to provide pressure
[16:37] <Tanada> sean, that is because the air is used as a compression driver to store pressure, not because the water doesn;t compress at all
[16:37] <Lensman> Assuming density = earth. Can't be so very far from that anyway for a habitable planet.
[16:37] <Harry_Red> I would suspect that given a High Gravity condition where there is atmospheric compression at the poles, you'd have a flow of atmosphere in from the equitorial areas and a flow out near the ssurfave... That is IF the gravity was marginally higher at the poles.
[16:38] <SeanS> if water could be compressed to any significant degree, the air bladder would be unneccesary
[16:38] <Tanada> if you have a planet like Mars with a density like Mars but a surface gravity like Earth it has a surface area twice the size of the Earth
[16:38] <NickE> (did you send Larry that java link Frank?)
[16:38] <Harry_Red> Yupp-er.
[16:39] <Tanada> The air bladder is a very cheap way to store pressure energy in the tank Sean, to drive the water out by letting the air expand
[16:39] <SeanS> hmm, wonder if he is running a firewall or something preventing him from coming in. he has been here before
[16:40] <SeanS> i know, tanada. otherwise the pump would have to run constantly
[16:40] <Tanada> woithout the air bladder you have to use a pump to force the water, or a heat source to make the water expand itself
[16:40] <Harry_Red> I think there was a link glitch..
[16:40] <NickE> ah
[16:41] <Tanada> Water towers work without air bladders, they just pum the water up hill and let gravity bring it back down under pressure
[16:41] <SeanS> gravity pressure
[16:41] <Tanada> exactly
[16:42] <SeanS> or whatever the term is. using gravitational potential energy or some such
[16:42] <Harry_Red> The important thing about a water tower is that has an atmosphere vent to prevent vaccume lock.
[16:42] <Tanada> most of the home water tanks I have any experience with are in the basement or first florr, no good for getting the water upstairs
[16:43] <SeanS> thats why water towers are always on the high ground
[16:43] <Lensman> How about this for a high-gravity inhabitable world: The core of the world is formed around a ball of neutronium. I'll admit I can't figure out how that could happen w/o having it accumulate a large amount of gas, tho. Is there some way for a ball of neutronium to merge with a planet after it has already formed?
[16:44] <NickE> with a very big bang?
[16:44] <Tanada> I think it would be foolish to expect all worlds with earth level gravity to have earth level density, average density is a matter of distance from the central start during accretion
[16:45] <SeanS> there was a story i read where there was a lump of dense stuff that moved around and the military training facilities kept moving to be over top of the higher gravity area as it moved around
[16:45] <NickE> like an orbiting black hole?
[16:45] <Lensman> Tan: You're right. Mars has about 3/4 the density of Earth. So there will be a range of densities.
[16:45] <Tanada> I played with that idea Lensman, a civlization could take a neutron star core whcih has cooled and just keep dumping sand on it until it is big enough for the gravity to be earth normal
[16:45] <SeanS> no, it was in the planet and i seem to think it was a religious military thing
[16:46] <Tanada> you end up with a world about the size of Ceres IIRC
[16:46] <NickE> so Kobol gould be tamed if we bung enough stuff on top?
[16:46] <SeanS> kobold, kobol is in BSG
[16:47] <Tanada> Nick, problem, rotational energy is conserved, the dirt will stick but the air won't
[16:47] <NickE> (actually I think it would evaporate in a big flash of x rays before we had a chance?
[16:47] <Harry_Red> I suspect you could tame KOBOL with enough cometary collisions, but it would take a WHOLE LOT of them.
[16:47] <Lensman> Obviously it depends on the mass of the neutronium ball. But I was trying to think of some way for a habitable world with Jinxian gravity to occurr naturally. I think from Dole's data the practical limit for normal worlds would be about 2G, but that's an old book and some of his assumptions may be outdated.
[16:47] <Harry_Red> http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20060304/fob6.asp
[16:48] <NickE> lots of friction as the bady spins inside its own atmo...or would it just throw that off
[16:48] <NickE> body
[16:49] <Tanada> Lensman, no reason we couldn't have a planet with Ceres level of density (3.0) and 1.76g like Jinx, a super terrestrial planet
[16:49] <NickE> shize, lets get out of this grav well and go try it!
[16:49] <SeanS> totally agree, nick
[16:49] <Harry_Red> Plot the collisions to land against the spin and slow it down. Again, it would take a LOT of bombardment... Hmmm Harlequin's Moon?
[16:49] <NickE> Hmm, could be
[16:49] <NickE> Lot of thought went into that
[16:50] <Harry_Red> Truly.
[16:51] <Tanada> I still think Shellworld (tm)is the ultimate goal, build a structure in two halfs like a clamshel, close it over Saturn so that it forms a shell at the liquid water level in the atmosphere
[16:51] <Tanada> you get earth level gravity, booku surface area and a comfortable surface temperature
[16:51] <NickE> I'm torn. Wnat to continue this, but also want to go curl up with the missus and watch Serenity, or Sin City and finish 2nd bottle of *nice* wine
[16:51] <Harry_Red> YOu'd need Unobtanium for that.
[16:52] <SeanS> i dont think there is a liquid water level on saturn since the planet would float if you dropped it in a big enough ocean
[16:52] <SeanS> sounds like a good plan nick
[16:52] <Harry_Red> One special day a month -vs- something you could do anytime Nick?
[16:52] <Tanada> Not at all Harry, the structure only has to be strong enough to support its own weight in an earth normal gravity field, every sky scraper and suspension bridge does that with steel or lesser materials
[16:53] <NickE> Still, like the idea of Shellworld, needs some tinkering, but we're good at that
[16:53] <SeanS> its almost 10pm in nick's neighborhood, frank
[16:53] <Harry_Red> Ok Tanada... Good point.
[16:53] <Harry_Red> Ah.
[16:54] <Tanada> I have been working on Shellworld for 20 years, started the novel at least twice ;)
[16:54] <NickE> Birthday today, hoping for more serious snuggling to follow :-)
[16:54] <NickE> Thats the wine talking!!!
[16:54] <Tanada> woohoo Nick, go for Gold as they say in the Smoke Ring
[16:54] <Lensman> Shellworld: Sure if you build a structure out of unreasonably strong material, like G-hull, then you can get whatever you want in surface gravity, density, atmospheric pressure.
[16:54] <Lensman> Happy birthday!
[16:54] <NickE> TY
[16:55] <Harry_Red> Happy Birthday Nick.
[16:55] <Tanada> Nice thing about Saturn, the surface gravity for a baloon is earth normal and much of the atmosphere is Helium
[16:55] <NickE> 42...and no, no universal revelations were unveiled
[16:55] <Harry_Red> Enjoy.
[16:55] <NickE> Will
[16:55] <NickE> Have
[16:55] <SeanS> LOL
[16:56] <Lensman> I still think digital watches are kewl.
[16:56] <SeanS> so whats the question? 6x9?
[16:56] <Tanada> you can help support the weight of your shell with hydrogen filled cells in void spaces in the structure, the goal being to make the structure neutrally bouyant
[16:56] <NickE> Got a page of original Andrew Whitman X-Men Adventures #3 art for my sins. Kewl
[16:56] <Lensman> No universe can contain both the answer and the question.
[16:56] <Tanada> in the natural saturnian atmosphere
[16:57] <Harry_Red> Hmmm. Liquid Water level on a Saturn like world would be a diriveative of Temp AND P no?essure
[16:57] <Tanada> Read Michale McCollums CLOUDTOPS OF SATURN its a blast and based on the idea of irrevocable climate change on Earth
[16:58] <Lensman> Tan: Oh you're trying to make Shellworld WITHOUT unobtainium? Well I'm impressed! (No not planning a long sea voyage...)
[16:58] <Tanada> Harry, pressure is about twice Earth normal at the liquid water level IIRC
[16:59] <Harry_Red> Ok. Perhaps oxygen and Nitrogen would provide the boyancy needed then.
[16:59] <Tanada> All my sci-fi is a hard science as I can make it Lensman, else its just fantasy in a space setting
[16:59] <SeanS> brb, gotta bio and flip satellites
[16:59] <Lensman> Tan: Ah, but the question is, is all SF really fantasy at its base?
[17:00] <NickE> I'd argue that while some is, a lot, often some of the very best, is not
[17:00] <SeanS> back
[17:01] <Tanada> Sorry Harry, the atmosphere is Helium-Hydrogen at that level, and you would probable use a 80% Helium, 10% Oxygen, 10% Nitrogen mix in your structure for breathing purposes, too much O2 and you get hypoxia?
[17:01] <NickE> Well maybe a lot is and some isn't :)
[17:01] <oliver> I need to go. Good Bye
[17:01] <NickE> TTFN Oliver
[17:01] <SeanS> l8r oliver
[17:01] <Tanada> Or is it Hyper-poxia? O2 poisening whatever you call it
[17:02] * oliver has quit IRC ("")
[17:02] <Tanada> Bye Oliver
[17:02] <Lensman> I was just reading something the other day that opined the "sense of wonder" that attracts people to read SF is caused by a logical framework that persuaded the reader that something utterly fantastic could be possible, thus resulting in a mental thrill for the reader.
[17:02] <Harry_Red> Ok. But everyone would talk in a very squeeky voice.
[17:02] <NickE> :-)
[17:02] <Tanada> Yup ;)
[17:02] <NickE> Mental thrils are good
[17:02] <NickE> and teh other sort
[17:03] <Lensman> Of course you could argue that some near-future SF (like much of Martin Caidin's writings) don't have any fantasy elements at all.
[17:03] <Tanada> We want to welcome you to the Lolly po guild, the Lollypop guild, The Lollypop guild
[17:03] <SeanS> i would say like most things, you would adapt to the squeeky voice
[17:03] <NickE> <grin>
[17:03] <Harry_Red> Hmmm, a whole planet where everyone sounds like Davr Guard's CHIPMONKS! :-)))
[17:03] <Lensman> But it's been argued that any story involving FTL travel is scientifically indefensible and thus, it may be argued, is at its base fantasy.
[17:03] <NickE> LOL!!!
[17:04] <NickE> (chipmunks, theres a blast from the past)
[17:04] <Tanada> Of course if it bugged you then you could use Neon as your dilutant instead of Helium, then you would sound normal and still get enough Oxygen, but producing that much Neon would be a lot harder than Helium
[17:05] <NickE> I hear Serenity (and a refil) calling
[17:06] <Lensman> I presume you mean "gather" neon, not "produce" it. If you're actually manufacturing it rather than gathering it, then you've got mass transmutation and neon should be little more difficult than helium.
[17:06] <SeanS> later nick... cant blame you a bit ;)
[17:06] <NickE> <ahem>
[17:06] <Tanada> I like Martin Caidens stuff, what I have read of it, and if space travle isn;t exciting or building a real cyborg isn't exciting I don't know what is
[17:06] <Tanada> Have a good one Nick
[17:06] <Tanada> and Happy Birthday
[17:07] <NickE> Nice wine too. Pigassou (Black Pig)( French country stuff but tastes like really expensive stuff)
[17:07] <SeanS> Tanada, ever read Timothy Zahns cyborg stuff?
[17:07] <Harry_Red> Have a good one Nick.
[17:07] <NickE> TY all. Say hi to Larry and Carol if they make it
[17:07] <Tanada> well hell Lenseman, we 'produce' methane by pumping it out of the ground so yes, I mean Gather not neuclear restructuring
[17:07] <NickE> bye
[17:07] * NickE has quit IRC ("")
[17:07] <Lensman> _Cyborg_ certainly remains beyond our technology. Especially those mini-nuclear reactors driving his "muscles". Yah lots of sense-of-wonder there. OTOH _No Man's World_ IIRC doesn't use anything beyond Apollo tech.
[17:08] <Tanada> The Zahn stuff I have read is the 5 Star Wars novels and something else, none of which involved cyborgs that I am aware of
[17:09] <SeanS> they were military guys known as cobras if i recall right
[17:09] <Lensman> Tan: OK but we aren't gonna get enuff gas to make an atmosphere to cover Saturn by pumping it out of Earth's ground!
[17:09] <Harry_Red> The experiments being done with monkey/computer interface shows that Cyborgs aren't all that far off. Perhaps 50 years.
[17:10] <Tanada> The miny neuclear reactors could be simple thermo-electric couplings charging capacitors during rest periods
[17:10] <Lensman> Zahn's original "Dark Force Rising" trilogy was not only good Star Wars, it was very good SF.
[17:10] <Lensman> I couldn't get into the sequel, tho.
[17:10] <Tanada> I consider all of Star Wars and Star Trek as space fantasy, not much science in any of it
[17:11] <SeanS> the first 3 star wars that he did were heir to the empire, dark force rising and the last command. all excellent
[17:11] <Harry_Red> I consider Star Wars to be moderatly well done Live action comic books.
[17:11] <SeanS> the next 2 with basically the fake thrawn and clone thrawn werent very good
[17:11] <Tanada> lol Lenseman, I would gather it from Saturns atmosphere, which is why Helium is by far the cheaper choice. Oxygen you get from Water, Nitrogen you get from Ammonia, both of which are part of the atmosphere in measurable ammounts
[17:12] <SeanS> the two i tried to read called survivors quest and outbound flight i couldnt finish
[17:12] <Lensman> The Lensman Series has some fantastic elements at the base if its "science" but has a logical framework built on top of it. Would you say the Lensman series and other pulp-era stories of super-science are not SF? They aren't *hard* SF but the field of SF is much broader than just hard SF.
[17:12] <Tanada> Sean, I was so peeved when Luke killed the Thrawn clone, destroying a true innocent to save himself? What kind of a Jedi is he anyhow?
[17:13] <SeanS> i loved the 'lensman'series. coundnt get into skylark tho
[17:13] <Lensman> Tan: Sorry if it sounded like I was arguing with you. Sure you could mine/gather helium from Saturn's atmosphere.
[17:13] <SeanS> i didnt like that either, tnada
[17:13] <Tanada> I loved the Skylark series and enjoyed the Lensmen books
[17:14] <Harry_Red> I enjoyed both SKYLARK and LENSMAN but liked Rangall Garett's take on them the best. ;-)
[17:14] <SeanS> i read the 6 books of lensman first and got through half of skylark of space and set it down
[17:14] <Lensman> Skylark is much more fantasy than is Lensman. In fact, I'll go so far as to say Skylark is more fantasy than it is SF.
[17:14] <Tanada> To me at the time it was written Skylark was speculative science fiction, we didn;t have any proof back then that special relativity actually worked
[17:15] <Tanada> the cyclones in Lensman are at least as
[17:15] <Lensman> Skylark has not aged as well as Lensman. WAY, WAY too much "Earth man's burden" attitude.
[17:15] <Harry_Red> I always found the Inertia Nullifyer interesting... That weas handled pretty well.
[17:15] <Tanada> wonky as the force fields in Skylark and the mass to inertia drive
[17:15] <Harry_Red> (Bloody Medications.)
[17:16] <SeanS> the bergenholm if i remember right?
[17:16] <Lensman> The Inertialess Drive (which isn't really a "drive") has been praised as being one of the few FTL devices in SF that can't be mathematically disproven. Then LN had to bollex up the works in "ARM"... darn his eyes!
[17:16] <Tanada> Yeah, but in Skylark you have real acelleration forces for travle, so you felt the g forces piling up
[17:17] <Lensman> Bergenholm is a synonym for the Intertialess Drive, yes.
[17:17] <Tanada> like in JP's Empire of Man and CoDo stories
[17:17] <SeanS> wow, got it right after reaching back about 23 years ;)
[17:18] <Lensman> Tan: Until later in the series where they figured out how to apply accelleration to all the mass in the ship, and the accelleration itself became greater than lightspeed... did I mention fantasy elements? ;)
[17:18] <Tanada> There was another storie based on direct conversion of electromagnetic forces into inertia, it was called THE WAILING ASTEROID but i forget who wrote it.
[17:20] <Tanada> basically you made a specially shaped metal core and wound it with fine magnet wire so that when you put power through the windings it repelled the mass behind itself
[17:20] <Lensman> Bergenholm being the scientist who improved the system from the partial inertialessness of the system used in _Triplanetary_, to full inertialessness. Or at least that's the fix-up explanation, being as "Triplanetary" wasn't originally part of the Lensman universe.
[17:20] <SeanS> sounds like the bootstrap concept
[17:20] <Tanada> pushing on the mass of the universe with magnetic lines of force, so to speak
[17:21] <Harry_Red> Tanada, hav you been following the discussions on a Greveto/Magnetyic spectrum? It touches on Inertia and the propertys there of.
[17:21] <SeanS> yeah, lensman, an arisian walked in drew some beautiful curves and had them switch from iron to uranium or some such
[17:21] <Lensman> Sean: You've got it!
[17:21] <SeanS> sometimes my memory is good
[17:21] <Tanada> Sorry Harry, I have been watching Venus Express with baited breath and spend most of my timne discusing Peak Oil and its implications
[17:22] <Lensman> Of course Bergenholm was cheating, he was really an Arisian in disguise.
[17:22] <Harry_Red> I'll keep you posted on any progress then.
[17:22] <Lensman> What is "Venus Express" ?
[17:22] <SeanS> thats what i said, lens ;)
[17:22] <Tanada> Venus Express is the EU probe sister to Mars Express but going thew other way
[17:22] <Lensman> Oh yes you did, sorry...
[17:23] <SeanS> lol
[17:23] <Tanada> it is schedualed to arrive in April, take up orbit and give us high resolution radar imaging, much more detailed than Magellen did
[17:24] <Lensman> "Peak Oil"? Can you give me a link that explains what you're talking about?
[17:24] <SeanS> i will be looking forward to that, tanada
[17:24] <Tanada> http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&oi=news&start=0&num=1&q=http://blog.sciam.com/index.php%3Ftitle%3Dgreetings_from_sunny_venus_hmm%26more%3D1%26c%3D1%26tb%3D1%26pb%3D1
[17:24] <Harry_Red> That will be EXCITING!
[17:24] <Tanada> http://blog.sciam.com/index.php?title=greetings_from_sunny_venus_hmm&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1
[17:25] <Tanada> Venus Express article ^^^
[17:25] <SeanS> cant believe i remember that much about kinnison and company after so long
[17:25] <Tanada> http://www.princeton.edu/hubbert/ <<<Peak Oil
[17:25] <Lensman> "Post cards from Venus" LOL!
[17:26] <Lensman> Sean: Well I re-read the series every few years, as you may have gathered from my handle ;)
[17:26] <SeanS> i figured, but i havent read it since i was 14 years old
[17:26] <Tanada> Sorry http://sci.esa.int/science-e/www/area/index.cfm?fareaid=64 is the actual Venus Express link, not the contest
[17:27] <Lensman> Just discovered and contributed to the "Lensman" article at Wikipedia the other day, as a matter of fact.
[17:27] <Lensman> "The golden age of science fiction is thirteen." ;)
[17:28] <Tanada> Hubbert was a brilliant geologist who forcast the peak in USA petroleum production in 1971. He made that prediction in 1956.
[17:29] <Tanada> He was right on the button, his margin for error bracketed the date within 12 months. Not bad shooting from 15 years earlier.
[17:30] <Tanada> If I could know what the winning lottory number would be in 2006 in 1990 I would be rich now ;)
[17:31] <SeanS> i would be happy to know what tonights winning lottery ticket number is
[17:31] <Lensman> I see the "Peak Oil" thing there now. So Exxon is in Serious Denial, eh? Straight out of Diamond's _Collapse_, and no surprise to me.
[17:33] <Tanada> The latest data from Dr. Ken Deffeyes gives a peak world production date of December 2005. We won't know if he was right until January 2008
[17:34] <Lensman> Of course the *good* thing about higher oil prices is that it automatically stimulates research into alternative energy sources.
[17:34] <Harry_Red> Buy stock in CHANGING WORLD TECHNOLOGIES then. http://www.changingworldtech.com/
[17:34] <Tanada> because there has to be a period of falling production with high demand to prove you have peaked. For instance the USA has produced less oil every year since 1971 except for three years when Alaska was at max production
[17:35] <Tanada> Lol Harry, I would love to, but they have to offer it for sale first. CWT is how i got into the whole PO debate and its all your