[10:11] * SeanS sets mode: +o Harry_Redd
[11:07] * Harry_Redd has quit IRC (Connection reset by peer)
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[11:38] * SeanS sets mode: +o Harry_Redd
[11:38] <SeanS> stay in the damn channel... i have to leave before too much longer
[12:38] <Flying_away> Hey Sean. You can't be here for the chat?
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[13:18] <Fred> Howdy folks. Just logging in an wandering away so I can come back later and see what I missed. :)
[13:23] <Lensman> I'm multi-tasking. Talk to you later!
[14:13] * NickE has joined #knownspace
[14:13] <NickE> Howdy Peeps
[14:14] <NickE> Mad day, but fun
[14:15] <NickE> <tumbleweed>
[14:17] <NickE> Hellooooo......?
[14:18] <NickE> 19.17 GMT here. Back in 10 minutes or so
[14:19] <Lensman> Hi Nick!
[14:20] <NickE> Ah it lives!
[14:20] <NickE> Eeryone take a pee at the same time or something?
[14:21] <NickE> everyone
[14:22] <Lensman> We're early, Nick. The gang hasn't arrived yet.
[14:22] <NickE> aah
[14:22] <Lensman> I think official start time is about 37 minutes.
[14:23] <NickE> I know, but theres usually a few early birds :-)
[14:24] <Lensman> So, anything new and wonderful in the world of Nick E?
[14:24] <NickE> Larry sometimes makes an early appearance as weel
[14:24] <Lensman> Does he? I haven't been here often enuff to know.
[14:24] <NickE> Oh this and that :-) Recorded my first podcast today!
[14:25] * Sean1783 has joined #knownspace
[14:25] <Lensman> Do tell!
[14:25] <NickE> Hi Sean
[14:25] <Sean1783> hey
[14:25] <Lensman> Hi Sean! Nick says he recorded his first podcast today.
[14:26] * Sean1783 changes topic to 'Welcome to the 1st Saturday of the month Niven Chat!!'
[14:26] <NickE> Well, did an article for Sending A Wave, a UK based Firefly podcast and turns out they record about 25 miles away. Met them all at a shindig a few weeks back and they invited me along to the recording
[14:26] <Sean1783> Good for you Nick...
[14:27] <NickE> Which was a hoot. Ended up commenting on my own voicemail that I'd sent them!
[14:27] <Lensman> So in this context is "article" print (type) or audio?
[14:28] <NickE> Audio. Review of a filk CD that was broadcast as episode 24 of The Signal, which is the original Firefly 'cast
[14:29] <NickE> So, been doing a *lot* of audio work lately (nudge, nudge)
[14:29] <Lensman> Our local convention is trying to lure in a Harry Potter podcast from MuggleNet. Problem is the podcasters are scattered all over the country; one is in New York, and we're in K.C. They can't afford their own plane fare, so it's a problem.
[14:30] <NickE> Some of which I can't talk about yet :-)
[14:30] <NickE> Do it all via Skype (yes I know I need to get it too)
[14:30] <NickE> A lot of 'casts do that
[14:31] <NickE> The Sending A Wave recording today had an interview with someone from Dallas via Skype (Very interesting, but I can't say more :-)
[14:32] <Sean1783> skype is a great program... i use it all the time
[14:33] <NickE> Yeah, i need to get broadband and sort it out as I'll be doing a lot more podcast and related audio in the near future
[14:33] <Sean1783> i talk to Euan in New Zealand with it all the time. crystal clear and video enabled
[14:33] <NickE> Cool
[14:33] <Sean1783> right out of star trek
[14:33] <Lensman> Yah, well that's spoze to be a part of a Harry Potter track and I guess the five people that wanna do the podcast want to be here at the con to participate in the programming. Which would be great, our con is just trying to figure out how to finance this.
[14:34] <Lensman> The only way I'd ever do video over Internet is using an avatar. I like being able to slouch in front of the keyboard in my underwear.
[14:35] <Sean1783> the video only starts when you tell it to
[14:35] <NickE> Difficult, just make sure it's done properly (witness Booster events going tits up in the last few days)
[14:35] <Lensman> At the moment it's a bit cold for that, but grungy clothes and uncombed hair, anyway.
[14:35] <NickE> Thanks for that image Lens!
[14:36] <Lensman> Glad to oblige. :)
[14:36] <Sean1783> euan called me the other day when it was zero here. he was having a party and girls were running around in bikinis.... asshole ;)
[14:36] * bandersnatch has joined #knownspace
[14:36] <NickE> Hi Uwe
[14:36] <NickE> ?
[14:36] <bandersnatch> hey all
[14:36] <Sean1783> hi uwe
[14:36] <Lensman> Welcome.
[14:38] <NickE> Sunny here today (nice bike ride to podcast session) bloody cold tonight though (chilly and dark ride home)
[14:38] <bandersnatch> we have global warming ;-/
[14:39] <NickE> Nooooo!
[14:39] <bandersnatch> too wet, toowarm , everything and the doormat is starting to have green friends
[14:39] <bandersnatch> .
[14:39] <NickE> :-)
[14:39] <Lensman> I forget, Bander, where do you live?
[14:40] <NickE> And whereaboouts in Germany?
[14:40] <Sean1783> well, back on the road for me... I will be on from the house after while. (at gf's now)
[14:41] <NickE> 'kay
[14:41] <Lensman> TTYL Sean
[14:41] <Sean1783> l8r
[14:41] * Sean1783 has quit IRC
[14:42] <Harry_Redd> Sean leaves and I show up! Hi all.
[14:43] <Lensman> Hi Harry
[14:43] <NickE> Here's the link to the podcast I did today (I see Toni has just updated the site too, Show 14 is mine) http://www.sendingawave.blogspot.com/
[14:43] <NickE> Hi Frank
[14:43] <NickE> He'll be back shortly
[14:46] <Lensman> So, anybody know what time what's-his-name, the co-author of _Fleet of Worlds_ will be here?
[14:46] <NickE> Ed Lerner. He reckoned around 3pm your time
[14:46] <Harry_Redd> Ed lerner Most likely about 3 or so West coast time.
[14:47] <NickE> What he said :-)
[14:47] <Lensman> I spoze it would be polite to check Ed out on Amazon.com and Locus Online to see what stories he has published. So I'll be multi-tasking for a bit.
[14:48] <NickE> brb
[14:48] <bandersnatch> Q to where i live: http://www.frappr.com/?a=myfrappr&id=463011
[14:52] <Harry_Redd> Right up near the Danish Border?
[14:53] <Fred> 07mmm, Danish . . .
[14:53] <Lensman> Looks like he's as far north in Germany as you can get, yah.
[14:55] <bandersnatch> another 50km, we sometimes go shopping in in either Sonderborg, Abenraa or Tonder
[14:56] <Harry_Redd> I like Danish food. They have a touch...
[14:56] <Lensman> I know nothing about weather patterns in Germany. I know there are *lots* of mountains. Do the prevailing weather patterns keep it wet where you are, or is it especially wet lately?
[14:56] <bandersnatch> tasty fish, yoghurt and some other stuff
[14:56] <bandersnatch> well, it starts to get hilly south fo the "mittelgebirge" ( there is a small outrigger "Harz further north.
[14:58] <bandersnatch> where i live its glacier runout zone, stony slightly hilly. the westcoast is about as flat a it can get. already see the inlaws on Monday when they come for a visit on Sunday.
[14:58] <Harry_Redd> Bander, It's pretty flat where you are no?
[14:59] <bandersnatch> i live at 14 meters elevation, been carefull about that.
[14:59] <Fred> 07font test
[15:00] <Lensman> I've never visited Europe, but I understand it's a lot more cosmopolitain there. Is there a lot of cross-border commuting? Do the two countries blend into one another, or does everyone on one side of the border have Deutsche as their native language, and Danish on the other?
[15:00] * Agincourtdb has joined #knownspace
[15:00] <Harry_Redd> I use to live at a bit over 100 m And grew up at a place 200 m above sea level.
[15:00] <Agincourtdb> hi
[15:00] <Fred> 07hey again
[15:00] <Harry_Redd> Hi Court.
[15:00] * Agincourtdb feels crappy
[15:01] <Lensman> Welcome
[15:01] <Fred> 07:(
[15:01] <bandersnatch> just looked it up ist terminal/end/front moraine
[15:01] <Harry_Redd> So does Harry.
[15:01] <Agincourtdb> I played a smoke-filled bar last night, didn't get home till 4am, still in bed now
[15:01] <NickE> Hi Dave
[15:01] <Agincourtdb> hi all
[15:02] <Fred> 07you see France pretty much outlawed indoor smoking?
[15:02] <bandersnatch> The danish/german Border has been move up and down on a regular basis.
[15:02] <NickE> Not good (smoky atmosphere)
[15:02] <Agincourtdb> we did in my country 2 years ago... baltimore is getting ready to, which is where i played.
[15:02] <Lensman> Has the border moved since WWII?
[15:02] <bandersnatch> Altona a neighboring town to hamburg used to be danish in the 1050
[15:02] <Fred> 074
[15:02] <Agincourtdb> even virginia is considering it
[15:02] <Agincourtdb> my county that is
[15:03] <Harry_Redd> I did some shoppoing yesterday... The power chair sis a wonder, but has no shocks and made it home on thelast bar of the power gage.
[15:03] <bandersnatch> and at one time Sonderborg, Abenraa ( Appenrade ) used to be german.
[15:03] <NickE> Looking fwd to July I think which is when the ban kicks in over here (public places)
[15:03] <bandersnatch> WeÄve got a well cared for dansih minority with their onw culture stuff and schools.
[15:03] <Harry_Redd> European border squabbles. (sigh)
[15:03] <Fred> 07what's the range on the chair Harry?
[15:04] <Lensman> So I guess the answer is: Yes, there's a lot of cultural blending near the border.
[15:04] <Agincourtdb> this is schw(whatever) and holstien?
[15:04] <NickE> Ireland has had the ban for a while now and while theer was a lot of "it'll kill pub trade!" talk, in fact restaurant and pub revenues have improved AFAIK
[15:04] <bandersnatch> Yeah, Schleswig Holstein
[15:04] <Harry_Redd> BRB COFFEE!
[15:04] <Agincourtdb> NickE exactly the same happened here: all the families started coming out, made up the business
[15:05] <NickE> All for that
[15:05] <Harry_Redd> I was told 11 miles, but this was only about 3.
[15:05] <Lensman> So what are the problems with living only 14 meters above sea level? Is the ground saturated with water? In New Orleans (USA) everyone is buried in mausoleums (sp?) above the ground, 'cuz if you dig a hole it fills with water.
[15:05] <NickE> Like pubs, hate the smog
[15:06] <Agincourtdb> bandersnatch: my sis was in that area doing computer trade show years ago, and she said there was no love lost
[15:06] <Agincourtdb> In New Orleans, if you build a HOUSE, it fills with water. ;-)
[15:07] <Lensman> I would be a lot more willing to go to a bar if I knew there would be no smoke. But I've never been part of the barfly/ pub crowd.
[15:07] <NickE> Heh. I work for a Danish company....who also have a German branch too
[15:07] <bandersnatch> Border: no, the last time the border was changed in a major way was by plebiszite in 1920
[15:08] <Agincourtdb> well, it got moved unwillingly during the war didn't it?
[15:08] <Lensman> That's about 3 generations ago, by now.
[15:08] <bandersnatch> computer trade show? that would have been hannover in Lower Saxony imho a less than pleasant palce
[15:09] <Agincourtdb> i don't remember bandersnatch.. it was near enough that the Danish ppl she was talking to about it had driven down for the day
[15:09] <bandersnatch> on the smaller island in front of the german northseacoast "halligen" they used to build the hauses in such a way that come high water
[15:10] <bandersnatch> they could separate the ceiling and roof as one piece from the walls and use it as a boat to savety.
[15:10] <Agincourtdb> wow
[15:10] <Agincourtdb> My question is, why not just build the house on pontoons?
[15:10] <Agincourtdb> or on stilts
[15:10] <bandersnatch> which danish firm?
[15:11] <Agincourtdb> no idea bandersnatch
[15:12] <Lensman> Wow indeed! I've never heard of that before.
[15:12] <bandersnatch> this was in the 1200- 1400 timeframe, they do it on stilts today. The lower walls are only loosely place between the concrete stilts and the upper storey and roof
[15:13] <bandersnatch> are rather sturby. now all stuff is taken to the attic lifestick is place in the first sotey and the groundfloor walls may be pushed out by the seay.
[15:13] <bandersnatch> they didnt have that for some time. But still you ve got to be carefull.
[15:14] <NickE> Oh www.topotarget.com
[15:14] <Agincourtdb> http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/02/03/headbutt.wookie.ap/index.html?eref=rss_topstories
[15:14] <Lensman> Interesting how potential disaster can affect architecture. In Japan, where earthquakes are frequent, traditional housing was built with the lightest possible construction, light wood and rice paper walls, so that if the house collapsed on top of you it wouldn't kill you.
[15:16] <NickE> LOL Aggie
[15:16] <Harry_Redd> Not only quakes Lens, but Typhoons. Shoji screens are easy and cheap to build. However, now, most building is reinforced concrete.
[15:16] <Agincourtdb> the words "headbutt" and "wookie" really stand out in that link, don't they? classy
[15:17] <NickE> :-)
[15:18] <NickE> The company has just "expanded" into the US as well
[15:18] <Agincourtdb> what do they do?
[15:19] <Agincourtdb> besides expand
[15:19] <Lensman> "Edward M. Lerner" had a novel from Baen Books: _Moonstruck_, Feb 2005. I'm guessing that's our guy?
[15:19] <Harry_Redd> Yupper.
[15:20] <Lensman> Good point re typoons Harry, thanx
[15:20] <Agincourtdb> wasn't that made into a movie with Cher?
[15:20] <Agincourtdb> ;-)
[15:20] <bandersnatch> the typhoon?
[15:20] <Harry_Redd> Been to Japan, sat out a typhoon in a bar there. FUN Party!
[15:20] <Agincourtdb> I took the name of my cd from the "Procrustes"
[15:20] <Agincourtdb> in "Crashlander"
[15:21] <NickE> small pharma, basically oncology research...small molecule ihihibitors for a number of cancer proteins, but Savene is our only product so far. It's bloody marvelous at what it does (prevents damage caused by anthracyclins when there's an extravasation accident)
[15:22] <Lensman> "Wookies have been known to tear peoples' *arms* out of their sockets... Let the wookie win!"
[15:22] <NickE> :-)
[15:22] <Agincourtdb> hehe Lens
[15:22] <Agincourtdb> Nick: I'll pretend I understodd that by smiling and nodding :-)
[15:22] <NickE> Thought you might :-)
[15:23] <Agincourtdb> They should have had a wookie tearing a clone trooper's arm out of it's socket in the ridiculous battle sequences in epIII
[15:23] <NickE> "an extra..what?" is most peoples reaction
[15:24] <Lensman> My biological studies help me with "oncology", but the rest whizzed right over my head...
[15:24] <Agincourtdb> Nick: you lost me before that, at anthracyclins
[15:24] <Agincourtdb> but you had me at hello
[15:25] * SteveS has joined #knownspace
[15:25] <Agincourtdb> hi steve
[15:25] <SteveS> Hi, all!
[15:25] <Lensman> I spoze I could look up "extravasation" but why should I when I can get Nick to tell me what it means?
[15:25] <Agincourtdb> rofl exactly
[15:25] <NickE> sorry. They are the main class of chemotherapy drugs. Nasty shit
[15:25] <NickE> :-)
[15:25] <NickE> Well you asked!
[15:26] <Agincourtdb> I need a soda
[15:26] <Harry_Redd> Hi Steve.
[15:26] <Agincourtdb> but the minifridge is waaaaaay over there
[15:26] <SteveS> Hey, Frank.
[15:26] <Agincourtdb> and my bed is so nice and warm and cozy
[15:27] <Lensman> Why didja hafta bring up Ep III? We were having such a *nice* conversation! <g>
[15:27] <Agincourtdb> lol sorry
[15:27] <SteveS> So is the Sith about to hit the fan?
[15:27] <Agincourtdb> http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/02/03/headbutt.wookie.ap/index.html?eref=rss_topstories
[15:27] <Agincourtdb> catch up steve
[15:28] <Lensman> Actually I have Ep III on DVD but have never watched it. Saw it only once in the theatre. Guess I should turn in by SW "geek" card, huh?
[15:28] <Agincourtdb> no
[15:28] <Agincourtdb> buying it in the first place assures your geek status
[15:29] <SteveS> So things got a little hairy, then. ;-)
[15:29] <Agincourtdb> lol steve
[15:29] <Lensman> Oh, what a relief!
[15:30] <Agincourtdb> all right I'm getting up long enough to relieve myself and getting a soda
[15:30] <NickE> OK. Chemo (often anthracyclin based poisons not to put too fine a point on it) generally administered by IV injection. You miss the vein (approx 0.1% occurance) and all this nasty crap goes into the surrounding tissue. Local concentration way over cells tolerance, cells die, necrosis, pain and really bad injury requiring excision and skin graft or even amputation! Savene stops teh cells going into programmed cell death, gives time for drug level to drop bel
[15:30] <Agincourtdb> but then right back into bed
[15:30] <bandersnatch> extravasation ~= leakage into the surrounding tissue ?
[15:31] <NickE> yup
[15:31] <SteveS> Yikes.
[15:31] <NickE> Given within 6 hours of an extravasation accident and it stops the cells dying off
[15:32] <Lensman> But "oncology" means pre-natal development, right? So what does that have to do with chemotherapy?
[15:32] <NickE> Kind of a safety kit deal. every cancer treatment centre should have a kit
[15:33] <NickE> Oncology = study of Cancer
[15:33] <Lensman> Oops! Bad Lensman, no biscuit.
[15:33] <NickE> :-)
[15:33] <Agincourtdb> obstetrics
[15:33] <NickE> thats the one
[15:36] <Harry_Redd> Ya got to be careful with medical terms. and NEVER confuse Circumcision with Castration!
[15:36] <NickE> Bloody hope not!
[15:36] <Harry_Redd> :-)
[15:37] <Lensman> "Ontogeny". That's what I was thinking of.
[15:37] <NickE> ah
[15:37] <bandersnatch> Ontogeny Recapitulates Phylogeny ??? ObNiven the Mote hehe
[15:38] <NickE> nice
[15:38] <Lensman> I think that's the best known use of the word, yes. Didn't remember it was in "Mote"
[15:39] <Harry_Redd> Nick : http://insider.washingtontimes.com/articles/normal.php?StoryID=20070202-100152-9747r
[15:40] <bandersnatch> bad link, login required
[15:40] <Agincourtdb> rgistered only
[15:40] <Harry_Redd> Free registration though.
[15:40] <Agincourtdb> plus, it's the Washington Times
[15:41] <NickE> whats the gist?
[15:41] <Harry_Redd> Nothing wrong with the Wash times that isn't wrong with the Wash Post.
[15:41] <SteveS> I went to bugmenot,com. You can use bugmenot@mailinator.com as username, and bugmenot for password.
[15:41] <Agincourtdb> nobody here reads the reverend moon's newspaper
[15:42] <Lensman> "Oh-oh. Someone must have said something political." <g>
[15:42] <Agincourtdb> i mean here in washington that is
[15:43] <Lensman> Sun Young Moon (sp?) owns the Washington... Post? Times? ??
[15:43] <bandersnatch> nice combination "mandatory" and "The reactions range from loss of consciousness to seizures."
[15:43] <Agincourtdb> i dont know if he still does but he did when it started
[15:44] * frgeek has joined #knownspace
[15:44] <Agincourtdb> hi fr
[15:44] <Harry_Redd> No longer. He had to divest himself.
[15:44] <SteveS> Hi, FG.
[15:44] <Agincourtdb> oh ok
[15:44] <frgeek> Hi all
[15:45] <frgeek> Is see we have another votile toopic on the list agian
[15:45] <Harry_Redd> Moon had to get rid of his interests in the SF Chronical too.
[15:45] <SteveS> I didn't realize it had those sorts of adverse side effects.
[15:46] <NickE> that worked, cheers Aggie
[15:46] * EML has joined #knownspace
[15:46] <NickE> Hi Phil
[15:46] <SteveS> Hi, EML.
[15:46] <EML> Room for one more?
[15:46] <NickE> Hi EML
[15:46] <Agincourtdb> hi eml
[15:46] <NickE> ED Lerner?
[15:46] <bandersnatch> "There is no proof Gardasil will stop cervical cancer," he said. "They haven't been studying it long enough to make that claim." Hmm now who decided to make it mandatory
[15:46] <Lensman> Fr Geek: Are you talking about global warming? I'm truly astounded, I though we'd pretty much talked out that issue in the past, I'm quite surprised it's getting so much response.
[15:46] <Harry_Redd> Hi Ed! Good to see you!
[15:47] <Lensman> "There's always room for Jell-O!" ...er, EML
[15:47] <bandersnatch> I would at least have tested ithis for some time on volunteers
[15:47] <EML> Hi all, Yes EML = Edward M. (Ed) Lerner ... or evil maniacal laughter. Context is everything.
[15:47] <NickE> :-)
[15:47] <Lensman> Oh! Welcome Ed. Or Evil, if you prefer.
[15:48] <NickE> "mine is and evil laugh...now die!"
[15:48] <Harry_Redd> Yeah Bander... The typical politicas response, identify a proble, then do something with out prtoper information even if it's the wrong thing and dangerous.
[15:48] <EML> We'll see ow it goes :-)
[15:48] <Agincourtdb> much like Iraq
[15:48] <Lensman> So, what can you tell us about your collaborations with Larry *without* any plot spoilers or giving away any of the "surprises" ?
[15:49] <EML> Agreed: no spoilers.
[15:49] <EML> OKay ... the first book (scheduled for September) is called Fleet of Worlds
[15:49] * Agincourtdb is drooling already
[15:49] <NickE> What got you 2 together on this project (FOW and JOW)?
[15:49] <bandersnatch> ok , no spoilers, right ;-)
[15:50] <NickE> <can't wait>
[15:50] <EML> That's intentionally evokes Ringworld, of course.
[15:50] <frgeek> Every time I hear "juggle of worlds" I think of some KS/Motie crossover (we juggle eggs of infinate value)
[15:50] <EML> 12Like Ringworld, Fleet of Worlds makes exploring an exotic environment part of the story.
[15:51] <Harry_Redd> One question. Is Louis Wu involved or do you have a new character set?
[15:51] <EML> 12(Uh-oh ... the many of you type faster than the one of me. :-) )
[15:51] <NickE> <Mr Burns> Excellent </Mr Burns>
[15:51] <Lensman> We were discussing the "stages of the hero's journey" re Ringworld and it was only then I realized that the voyage to the Fleet of Worlds was a lesser journey to the "world of wonder", prestaging the greater journey to Ringworld.
[15:52] <Harry_Redd> Please slow down with the questions all. Ed is new to IRC. chat.
[15:52] <NickE> No prob
[15:52] <EML> 12Fleet of Worlds (hereafter, FOW) takes place 200 years before Ringworld. Louis Wu isn't a character. But Nessus is ...
[15:53] <NickE> Cool. Figures too
[15:53] <EML> 12Struggling to give you information without spoilers ...
[15:53] <Harry_Redd> EXCELLENT!
[15:53] <NickE> We know Siggie Ausfaller is involved (Larry told us)
[15:53] <Lensman> I think Larry has said it's set shortly after "At the Core", and I'm guessing the plot concerns the start of the Puppeteer migration.
[15:53] <Fred> 07does anybody else ever make a niven joke in the wrong forum and have everybody stare at them uncomprhendingly?
[15:54] <Agincourtdb> no, I'm well-compartmentalized
[15:54] <EML> 12There must be human charcaters of course. In FOW, they come from a world in Known Space never before revealed.
[15:54] <Lensman> Not really, no.
[15:54] <Harry_Redd> Not compartmentalized. I have degrees of seporation.
[15:54] <Fred> 07they were talking about why Tiger Woods won't play here in Phoenix any more. Apparently the last time he did, somebody threw an orange at him
[15:54] <NickE> That's a very interesting period of Known Space, always keen to know more
[15:55] <Fred> 07I said "at least it wasn't a thrumb"
[15:55] <Harry_Redd> Truly Nick.
[15:55] <NickE> :-)
[15:55] <EML> 12As to Sigmund, he's more in Juggler of Worlds (hereafter JOW).
[15:55] <Lensman> Yah, well until Larry said Siggy was involved, I thought perhaps it was *all* about Puppeteers, no human characters.
[15:55] <NickE> Ah
[15:56] <NickE> Mostly new human characters then in FOW?
[15:56] <EML> 12I'll say less about Juggler than Fleet (for one thing, Juggler is a work in progress), but *both* have human characters.
[15:56] <Harry_Redd> One thing I have noticed. The more Nessus stories we got, The more human Nesses got. Right up to R.E. Ed, did you have a problem with that?
[15:56] <Fred> 07ack. I explained the joke, and my other chat is saying "ringworld? I don't even know what that is"
[15:56] <NickE> Good. Need the "tourist" human viewpoint amongst others
[15:57] <EML> 12Both books have scenes in familiar parts of Known Space *and8 in the Fleet of Worlds.
[15:57] <Lensman> So I presume it delves much more deeply into Puppeteer culture than we've seen before. Does the question re Puppeteer reproduction get resolved? Is there a description of the "mother" species and more details of how the baby is brought to term? And do Puppeteers lactate?
[15:57] <Lensman> Inquiring minds want to know!
[15:57] <NickE> Steady Lens!
[15:57] <NickE> :-)
[15:57] <Agincourtdb> The Answers to your questions will cost one trillion stars
[15:58] <NickE> LOL
[15:58] <Fred> 07hmm. do baby puppeteers suckle from both mothers of differnt species at the same time?
[15:58] <EML> 12Stepping back, these books came about because I wanted to explore the Fleet. I was on a Worldcon panel with Larry about worlds we'd like to visit.
[15:58] <Lensman> LOL Agin
[15:58] <Harry_Redd> I never bout into the "digger wasp" idea. It is innefficent, for one thing and Puppeteers do lie a lot. ;-)
[15:58] <NickE> Oh definitely
[15:58] <Agincourtdb> they probably eat the corpse of the mother they just burst out of
[15:58] <EML> 12I said I wanted to visit the Fleet of Worlds ... and one thing led to another.
[15:58] <NickE> That's pretty cool
[15:59] <Agincourtdb> and then they put on a top hat and a cane and do a little dance on the countertop
[15:59] <EML> 12I can promise this: you'll learn far more about the Puppeteers than you ever have (starting with what *they* call themselves).
[15:59] <NickE> I always thought that there was a lot more that could be done with that, with teh stepping discs etc
[15:59] <Lensman> I see you have one novel out, _Moonstruck_. Have you had any short stories published?
[15:59] <NickE> Ooooohh!
[16:00] <NickE> Bet we can't pronounce it
[16:00] <EML> 12In previous Known Space stories, you've never seen Puppeteers interact. You never saw a sane Puppeteer. Prepare for both.
[16:00] * Harry_Redd has quit IRC (Connection reset by peer)
[16:00] <Agincourtdb> hehe
[16:00] <Lensman> What they call themselves sounds like a steam calliope exploding, of course. :)
[16:00] <NickE> This is true. This is *good* (what's coming)
[16:01] <NickE> well naturally
[16:01] <NickE> he'll be back
[16:01] <frgeek> mmm puppetter information
[16:01] <Lensman> Several Known Space fans will now have to wipe drool off their keyboards...
[16:01] <NickE> too late
[16:01] <Agincourtdb> I can see the movie poster now... "FLEET OF WORLDS: in space, no one can hear a steam calliope explode"
[16:01] <EML> 12Lensman, to date I have three books published (although the first, Probe, is out of print). Moonstruck, as you say, is recent (and came out this week in MM PB). The third is a collection called Creative Destruction.
[16:02] <EML> 12Yup, I also do short fiction. Some is in the collection. For a complete list, see my website www.sfwa.org/members/lerner/
[16:02] <Lensman> So how did the collaboration with Larry work physically? Phone? E-mail?
[16:02] <Agincourtdb> I always had a problem with the description of Puppeteer vocals as it relates to their physiology...
[16:03] <frgeek> Probe I remeber that - a cloned human used by aliens for reconmassaince is returned to earth?, wasn;t there a sequel called counterprobe?
[16:03] <SeanS> Hi everyone
[16:03] <SteveS> Hi, Sean.
[16:03] <Agincourtdb> to have polyphony, you need seperate airstreams either going through different tubes or past different "vocal chords"
[16:03] <NickE> wb Sean
[16:03] <Agincourtdb> hi sean
[16:03] <EML> 12Larry & I mostly work by email (yes, with phone calls thrown in). Since I'm in Virginia and he's in California, face-to-face isn't practical.
[16:03] <Lensman> Hi Sean. EML (Ed Learner) is dropping juicy hints about _Fleet of Worlds_.
[16:03] <Fred> 07PROBE? Any relation to either TV series?
[16:04] <frgeek> Nevermind same titel differnt book
[16:04] <EML> 12frgeek: nope, that wasn't the Probe I wrote.
[16:04] <Lensman> I'm assuming Puppeteers have vocal chords in both throats.
[16:04] <Agincourtdb> that gives you two "voices"\
[16:04] <EML> 12Byline alert: Lerner is without an "a."
[16:05] <Agincourtdb> but the descriptions imply many different pitches simultaneously
[16:05] <Lensman> Sorry, "Evil"!
[16:05] <Lensman> Agin: Why is that a problem?
[16:05] <EML> 12Ah, Puppeteer physiology. Yes. you'll learn more about that, and reproduction, and mannerisms ...
[16:05] <Agincourtdb> duophony doesn't sound like a steam calliopy exploding: it sounds like organum..
[16:05] <NickE> agin with the drool!
[16:06] <Lensman> Picky, picky.
[16:06] <Agincourtdb> yeah
[16:06] <Agincourtdb> it's the musician in me
[16:06] <Agincourtdb> total nitpick
[16:06] <EML> 12There are Tibetan monks who somehow set up multiple tones with just the one set of vocal cords.
[16:06] <NickE> Throat siging
[16:06] <NickE> singing
[16:06] <NickE> ?
[16:07] <frgeek> I could not tell the differnce beween an cakkiopy and an organum if they expolded in frnmt of me.
[16:07] <SteveS> And their voice mechanism may not work like our reed instrument voice boxes.
[16:07] <EML> 12Puppeteers have two throats, and who's to say (well, besides Larry & me) how many independent sets of vocal cords are in each throat?
[16:07] <NickE> True
[16:07] <Lensman> I just *love* all Larry's descriptions of Nessus' screams. Every one of them is <a musical instrument> + <a violent destructive act>. The humor is something I can look forward to every time I re-read Rw.
[16:07] <Agincourtdb> sure, but if they're small, they're limited to high pitch
[16:08] <NickE> Creative Destruction look very interesting. One for the shopping basket :-)
[16:08] <EML> 12Actually, Puppeteers aren't small; they're just shorter than humans. In the story "The Soft Weapon" (in which he kicks a Kzin) we see that Nessus is quite massive.
[16:08] <Lensman> So perhaps they have different sets of vocal chords at different places along each throat. Hmmm...
[16:09] <Agincourtdb> they'd have to have many streams or many chords, of varying size, to result in the whole pipe organ/full orchestra descriptions being accurate
[16:09] <Lensman> Yah, the body is the size of a pony? Not human-sized.
[16:09] <Fred> 07louis expressed surprise that Nessus didn't weigh much more than he did
[16:09] * CatPasswd has joined #knownspace
[16:09] <NickE> I think Aggie meant the vocal chords
[16:09] <Agincourtdb> I'm saying their heads aare small
[16:09] <NickE> Hi Cat
[16:09] <Agincourtdb> and the chords are small
[16:09] <SteveS> Hi, Cat.
[16:09] <Agincourtdb> unless theyre down in the body
[16:09] <Fred> 07long necks
[16:09] <Agincourtdb> which i suppose is a possibility
[16:09] <CatPasswd> lo folks
[16:09] <Fred> 07plenty of room for cords
[16:09] <Agincourtdb> hi cat
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[16:10] <Fred> 07hey harry
[16:10] <NickE> wb Frank
[16:10] <Lensman> Welcome Cat, Harry
[16:10] <Agincourtdb> Fred: the chords can't be in series, they have to act on separate airstreams to result in muoltiple pitches
[16:10] <Harry_Redd> Oh my. The system reset!
[16:10] * Bill has joined #knownspace
[16:10] <Fred> 07they have two throats :)
[16:10] <EML> 12Another thing I can share about FOW and JOW ... both will shed light on past events in the Known Space canon. We hope you will have several "aha" moments.
[16:10] <NickE> Hi Bill
[16:10] <Agincourtdb> wb
[16:10] <SteveS> Hi, Bill
[16:10] <Lensman> Agin: No, vocal chords vary pitch by how tightly they're stretched.
[16:11] <Agincourtdb> Fred: again, that's two pitches
[16:11] <NickE> Oh boy, thats just up our street Ed
[16:11] <Agincourtdb> Lens: I konw that
[16:11] <Bill> Greetings, Known Spacers!
[16:11] <Fred> 07hey bill
[16:11] <NickE> 'Lo
[16:11] <Harry_Redd> Any more about TRINOCs?
[16:11] <Harry_Redd> Hi Bill.
[16:11] <Agincourtdb> but to have two of them producing two pitces, they can't be acting on the same airstream
[16:11] <Lensman> Oho, retroactive continuity! The meat-and-potatoes of the LN list!
[16:11] <NickE> The puppeters may have dealt with the Trinocs longer than with humans
[16:12] <Fred> 07yes, we know that they did
[16:12] <Agincourtdb> the puppeteers will have dealt with everyone longer than humans
[16:12] <Fred> 07for a fact
[16:12] <NickE> well yeah :-)
[16:12] <Lensman> Agin: Okay, I see what you're saying. Like a pipe organ, any single pipe can only vibrate at one frequency.
[16:12] <Agincourtdb> right
[16:12] <EML> 12Louis Wu discovered Trinocs in "There Is A Tide." FOW and JOW both precede that story (but, he teases ... there IS a tie-in to that story).
[16:12] <Agincourtdb> one airstream = one pitch
[16:13] <NickE> This just gets better :-)
[16:13] <Agincourtdb> I'm going to buy this book, and eat it. Then I'm going to buy another copy to read ;-)
[16:13] <NickE> :-)
[16:13] <frgeek> Hmm maybe pupeetters have other opening on their bodies to briethabd thier mouths are only for eating. Does it say that they breath through thier mouths in any of teh books is tha just an assumption?
[16:13] <Lensman> Well, this may be one of those cases where an author shouldn't let the facts stand in the way of a good story. <g>
[16:13] <Bill> Knot Knessessarily ... the dolphin melon produces many resonances fron a single organ...
[16:14] <Harry_Redd> In pipe organs, the length and diameter of the pipe determines the pitch.
[16:14] <Agincourtdb> and each pipe has a separate airstream
[16:14] <NickE> No doubt that the whole list will be getting hold of this when it's out
[16:14] <Harry_Redd> Thank you Ed.
[16:14] <Lensman> I know it's said somewhere, maybe in the foreword to _Tales of Known Space_, that Puppeteer space is larger than Human space, so Puppeteers may be in contact with species we've never "met".
[16:15] <NickE> Pierin
[16:15] <EML> 12For a Puppeteer, lips and tongue serve as fingers. One small challenge of the books was to coordinate when characters spoke and when they manipulated things.
[16:15] <NickE> (no human interactions in canon)
[16:15] <Lensman> Fr: Nessus sucks from a bulb of warm carrot juice, so therefore it seems almost certain they breathe thru their throats.
[16:15] <NickE> " heads though
[16:15] <NickE> 2
[16:15] <Harry_Redd> I said it Lens. The Puppeteers travel far. I see it as a way to gainfully employ their insane.
[16:15] <SteveS> Parrots and other birds can reproduce all kinds of sounds, including speech, all without lips. I don't know how their voice boxes work, but it's another possibility.
[16:16] <Agincourtdb> hehe the entire puppeteer trading empire, considered as a works program for the mentally disabled
[16:16] <SteveS> Sounds abut right.
[16:16] <EML> 12Wait till you find out what *really* inspired General Products ... (evil maniacal laugh).
[16:17] <NickE> I don't see it like that. the insane are a vital part of their operations
[16:17] <Agincourtdb> "here, here's some paper and a box of crayons. Or, you could supervise all our dealings with alien races."
[16:17] <NickE> Oh you swine sir!
[16:17] <Bill> "Puppeteer wanna cracker ..." yeh right
[16:17] <Harry_Redd> More like mentally disturbed court. A way of keeping a disruptive influence from the general population.
[16:17] <NickE> That too
[16:17] <Fred> 07from ringworld:
[16:17] <Fred> 07"It's been a long time since college. Yon had a comniercial empire once, didn't you? What we like to call known space was just a part of it. We kww the Trinocs bought from you, and we didn't meet the Trinocs until twenty years ago."
[16:18] <NickE> Ta Fred
[16:18] <Agincourtdb> fred you're looking very orange today
[16:18] <Lensman> Well there's been some paranoid speculation that GP was just a way to keep other species from developing their *own* spacecraft, and therefore keep them technologically backward *and* dependent upon the Puppeteers.
[16:18] <Fred> 07I'm pretending to be a Kzin
[16:18] <Agincourtdb> hehe
[16:18] <Fred> 07although I supposed the color is redundant. I should merely scream and leap.
[16:18] <Agincourtdb> HAHA
[16:18] <NickE> :-)
[16:18] <Harry_Redd> Truly
[16:18] <Agincourtdb> I find your color verbose
[16:18] <frgeek> Lens true probbale but not conclusive. I was just throwing out ideas liek I am wont to do
[16:19] <Bill> Fred: The litter box is at <esc> ...
[16:19] <Agincourtdb> Ed: you see how we tend to run away with ourselves lol
[16:19] <Fred> 07RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
[16:19] <NickE> <grin>
[16:19] <Lensman> If their trading empire is so important, why did they fold up their tent and sneak off into the night when the Puppeteer migration started? That suggests its primary purpose was manipulation of other species, not economic income.
[16:20] <Agincourtdb> have you met my pet Kzin, Fred-Ritt?
[16:20] <NickE> LOL
[16:20] <frgeek> Or it may be an indicator of how scared they were
[16:20] <Lensman> LOL scream an leap
[16:20] <Harry_Redd> If you're going to meddle with other races destiny, why not make it pay?
[16:20] <NickE> exactly
[16:20] * Bill has quit IRC (Connection reset by peer)
[16:20] <Agincourtdb> that's the paranoia of the sane puppeteers acting from above
[16:20] <EML> 12Far above, someone mentioned stepping discs. I'm a computer guy by training (well, part of my training) -- I wrote functional specs for the telportation control system. And then, of course, had fun with it.
[16:20] <Agincourtdb> "You've had your fun, but now we have to bug out"
[16:21] <Agincourtdb> "don't forget the box of crayons"
[16:21] <NickE> Nice. Logical framework (within a SF setting) to play with
[16:21] <Lensman> Seven League Boots. Yah... sigh.
[16:21] <Harry_Redd> I always loved that scene in RE.
[16:21] <Lensman> Yes indeed.
[16:21] <NickE> Ya, that was a neat idea with teela
[16:21] <frgeek> EML Interesting. Must be way beyond our idea of foolproof.
[16:22] * Bill has joined #knownspace
[16:22] <Agincourtdb> hi Bill
[16:22] <Bill> Well, that was rude
[16:22] <NickE> HAs to be. Teh existing RW books make that clear (apart from Protectors that is)
[16:22] <NickE> wb Bill
[16:22] <frgeek> Bugless software. how novel!
[16:22] <Agincourtdb> oxymoron
[16:22] <EML> 12THere are a trillion Puppeteers on the home world ... think about how many stepping discs there must be.
[16:23] <Harry_Redd> Buggless SW. Often claimed but never seen!
[16:23] <NickE> Uh huh
[16:23] <Agincourtdb> well actually
[16:23] <Agincourtdb> 10 Print "hi"
[16:23] <Agincourtdb> 20 goto 10
[16:23] <Agincourtdb> bugless
[16:23] <frgeek> Well that why ist science fiction! :
[16:23] <Bill> Felix and David, did you post my version of the Lying Bastard anywhere? I'm curious about the reaction.
[16:23] <Harry_Redd> Bugless, but Chock FULL of "Features"!
[16:23] <NickE> Wahsaat?>
[16:23] <Lensman> I don't think so. If we'd stop evolving our computers, software would stabilize and there would be time to work the bugs out. Ultimately you may need to start from scratch and re-build from the ground up in a rigorous system to eliminate bugs.
[16:24] <EML> 12Um, "bugless" does not preclude "has modes of operation no one has ever thought before to exploit."
[16:24] <Harry_Redd> Very good reactions Bill. I don't know if it got to the K.S. Site though.
[16:24] <NickE> re Protectors messing with the network in RWT and RWC
[16:24] <Lensman> Bill: You said Felix was going to, so I didn't. But I can do so fairly quickly if needed.
[16:25] <Agincourtdb> careful about Tanj stuff'
[16:25] <EML> 12Consider: Larry created impenetrable General Product hulls -- and then wrote two stories that involved loopholes.
[16:25] <Agincourtdb> if you know who is possibly going to read the log
[16:25] <NickE> Ah
[16:25] <Bill> I don't know how to from here, Lens.
[16:25] <frgeek> LENS well for us we put functionality first and bug eradictaion second. For pupperrets I thionk it would be the other way arround. "safty first" is not just a motto with them
[16:25] <NickE> Quite
[16:25] <Harry_Redd> Ed, Bill is a well known artist and did a rendering of LYEING BASTARD for a COn Cover. If you have a client that will accept a file transfer, I'll DCC it to you.
[16:26] <Lensman> Fr I agree 100%.
[16:26] <EML> 12I don't normally do ftp, Is there a url I can just click?
[16:26] <frgeek> You agree? darn thats no fum
[16:26] <Agincourtdb> hehe
[16:26] <Harry_Redd> Not that I know of.
[16:26] <NickE> Thinking beyond the box is always neat
[16:26] <Lensman> Oh sorry... you blockheaded idjit! Puppeteer want their bells and whistles more than we do! They're into hedonism, doncha know?
[16:27] <Bill> Felix, you make me blush. I'd just like a review from experts.
[16:27] <Lensman> Just a minute, I'll post Bill's painting.
[16:27] <frgeek> Heck I have yet to see this box everyone talks about.
[16:27] <EML> 12Harry: I have broadband. Should be okay to just attach it to an email.
[16:27] <NickE> :-)
[16:28] <EML> 12Huh! Sudden silence.
[16:28] <NickE> It happens
[16:28] <Agincourtdb> we're hunting wabbits
[16:28] <Bill> Who can think of things more fun than a toothache?
[16:28] <NickE> LOL
[16:29] * django has joined #knownspace
[16:29] <EML> 12I got WAY behind earlier. If anyone had a question I hadn't yet answered ... remind me.
[16:29] <SteveS> Hi, Django
[16:29] <django> greetz all
[16:29] * Lambert has joined #knownspace
[16:29] <SteveS> Hi, Dave
[16:29] <Bill> Please let me know, this one's occupying most of my attention ...
[16:29] <NickE> brb
[16:29] <Lambert> hi from Hoboken NJ
[16:29] <NickE> hi dave
[16:29] <Lambert> What's the hot topic?
[16:30] <EML> 12Puppeteer vocal cords.
[16:30] <Lensman> Ed Lerner is here, Puppeteers and the upcoming _Fleet of Worlds_ is topic.
[16:30] <SteveS> EML is the co-author of the upcoming Puppeteer Fleet of Worlds books.
[16:30] <Lambert> I thought Puppeteers had tympanium, not vocal chords
[16:30] <Bill> Greetings, Django & Lambert from Hoboken.
[16:30] <frgeek> EML Ooh did you you just a plotpiont out with the "bugless comment?
[16:30] <django> hola bill
[16:30] <SteveS> That would work, too, like organic speakers.
[16:31] <NickE> behind too. Hi Neil
[16:31] <Lensman> http://www.freewebs.com/lensman003/Lying%20Bastard_SpeakerHitsTheBrakes.jpg
[16:31] <Lensman> Title of Bill's painting is "Speaker Hits the Brakes"
[16:31] <Bill> (Bated breath...)
[16:32] <django> hi nick
[16:32] <NickE> just dl it now
[16:32] <EML> 12I don't think I revealed any plot detail here, but sure: "bugless does not mean safe" does matter.
[16:32] <NickE> (bloddy dialup)
[16:32] <Fred> 07the chat is still young, EML
[16:32] <NickE> Hmm!
[16:32] <CatPasswd> There's no such thing as idiot-proof. They'll just invent a better idiot
[16:32] <Lensman> Can the Puppeteers "jump" from world to world, or just from one place to another on the same world.
[16:33] <NickE> Aye
[16:33] <NickE> relay satelites
[16:33] <Lensman> EVERYONE should look at the link I just posted. I think you'll enjoy it.
[16:33] <django> nice render, Bill
[16:33] <NickE> should be able to go anywhare in teh Rosette
[16:33] <EML> 12In one of the Ringworld books (I think RE), we learn that a jump cannot absorb more than a limited amlunt of kinetic energy.
[16:33] <CatPasswd> That wing is huge
[16:33] <Bill> Very kind, Dave. I'm just looking for reviews and corrections.
[16:34] <Lambert> Lensman, what does %20 translate to?
[16:34] <SteveS> Very nice. The wings look really good, including the reactionless thruster discs.
[16:34] <SteveS> Space.
[16:34] <SteveS> =%20
[16:34] <Lensman> Dave L: Does the link not work for you?
[16:34] <NickE> (still dl the pic!)
[16:34] <Agincourtdb> thats gorgeous
[16:34] <Lambert> link does not work for me
[16:34] <EML> 12You'll perhaps recall that when Speaker was in trouble (being roasted inside his ship), Louis could not jump all the way around Ringworld to help. Louis first had to get close enough before he could step into Speaker's trapped ship.
[16:35] <Agincourtdb> it is now my desktop
[16:35] <NickE> Of course
[16:35] <Lensman> I think it's an underscore _
[16:35] <Harry_Redd> Ed, I just E-Mailed the pic to you.
[16:35] <EML> 12Cool, Harry. Thanks.
[16:35] <NickE> The Kinetic energy thing was quite a point (also in earkier KS stories with transfer booths)
[16:35] <Bill> Agincourt: ... I'm flattered!
[16:35] <SteveS> Here's my stab at it, from many years ago: http://www.sloan3d.com/chmeee/liar.jpg
[16:35] <Fred> 07right, but is the fleet rotating around an axis at high speed like the ringworld does?
[16:35] <Lensman> Ed: Yah, it's in RE where there's a limit to how far 'round the ring they can jump.
[16:35] <Fred> 07that was the problem
[16:36] <frgeek> Well you pick and choose your pionts on the planet you arrive to minimize or even eliminate and diffence in kenetic energy.
[16:36] <django> yeah - my one sticking point was when stepping disks when from an open transfer booth to a portal
[16:37] <EML> 12On a planet (or ringworld) surface, the farther apart you get, the bigger the difference in velocity (because velocity is a vector).
[16:37] <Lambert> someone e-mail it to dave@souffle.net
[16:37] <Lambert> my browser won't accept a space in a URL
[16:37] <django> you could jump rimwall to rimwall, but only through a limited arc
[16:37] <Agincourtdb> else you'd arrive on fire or soemthing liek that
[16:37] <Agincourtdb> type much Aggie?
[16:37] <Lambert> heh heh... fire! fire!
[16:38] <SteveS> I've sent you a copy.
[16:38] <Lambert> thanky
[16:38] <NickE> Bill... thats a damn nice picture
[16:38] <django> with Flash Crowd, it's the inertia that kills you
[16:38] <Lensman> The problem *I* have with stepping discs is firing a laser into one and having a laser beam come out the other side! If the booths work by "grabbing" whatever is there and flicking it to another place, there should be a time lag between one flick and the next. So how can a continuous laser beam come out?
[16:38] <Agincourtdb> the intertia is converted into heat
[16:38] <frgeek> I meant form one planet to another planet. of the FOW are close I can see why they can't telpoet beween them. Now rigworld has it own set of problems.
[16:38] <Agincourtdb> hence the fire
[16:38] <EML> 12Puppeteers being safety conscious would build stepping discs to disallow any unsafe jump.
[16:38] <Fred> 07you should be able to go pole to pole around the rosette
[16:39] <django> heh - i wish I still had the original models for this: http://www.larryniven.org/images/ringworldart/Ring%20and%20Liar%20flaring.jpg
[16:39] <SteveS> The dish assemblies on the pods are nice.
[16:39] * oneukum has joined #knownspace
[16:39] <Harry_Redd> Err no Fred. Planetary Rotation problems I would think.
[16:39] <frgeek> Amybe the tiem lag is less than the time it takes tehlaser beam to traverse the disk?
[16:39] <django> Lensman: that was a point I put to Larry in one of the chats
[16:39] <Bill> Nice work, Steve ... we think alike!
[16:39] <Fred> 07"Stepping discs can absorb kinetic energies of up to two hundred feet per second"
[16:39] <NickE> Hi Oliver
[16:39] <Agincourtdb> they're probably rotating in harmony
[16:39] <Lensman> Yes, I agree, since the FOW are not orbiting with the speed of Ringworld's rotation, why can't they jump from one to another? From the description in Rw-- where Louis sees the rosette flash past== they *must* be fairly close together.
[16:40] <Agincourtdb> same day length
[16:40] <Lambert> gotta go babysit my very own Kzin cub
[16:40] <SteveS> The inside of the GP2 hull could use some more detail, though. It doesn't look like people can live there, and I got the impression that the hyperdrive shunt covered most of the bottom inner surface of the hull.
[16:40] <Harry_Redd> I think Ed is finding out why Larry values the First Saturday Chat sessions. ;-)
[16:40] <Agincourtdb> you'll have orbital velocity to consider
[16:40] <Lambert> have a nice chat
[16:40] <django> adios, Lambert
[16:40] <oneukum> Hi
[16:40] <Fred> 07the hindmost says stepping discs don't have distance limits, only energy limits
[16:40] <Lambert> I think Ed is finding out why Larry doesn't always attend! LOL
[16:40] <EML> 12You guys are touching a lot of key aspects to the puzzle: stepoping discs, GP hulls, software technique ...
[16:40] <SteveS> I had real trouble coming up with that detail when I was working on it.
[16:40] <NickE> Ya, thats how I imagined how the shunt would fit in the hull
[16:41] <django> hi oneukum
[16:41] <Agincourtdb> Ed: we run with the ball :-)
[16:41] <SteveS> Hi, Oliver
[16:41] <NickE> We like puzzles
[16:41] <Lensman> Welcome Oliver
[16:41] <Lambert> I like "stepoping discs" it has a great visual
[16:41] <Agincourtdb> gimme the ball gimme the ball gimme the baaaaaaaaaaall
[16:41] <Agincourtdb> hehe
[16:41] <NickE> :-)
[16:41] <EML> 12The Hindmost improved stepping discs during the course of his exile on Ringworld. The ones he first arrived with had the energy limits.
[16:41] <Lensman> So Ed, have you discussed the laser beam thing with Larry?
[16:41] <Agincourtdb> hop on pop, stepopoing disc
[16:42] <Fred> 07right, that's the energy limit I quoted; the stock model
[16:42] <django> IIRC one of the early KS stories had inertial disparity used to aid a murder
[16:42] <Harry_Redd> Bill, From descriptions, the H.D Shunt is golden and looks 1/2 melted. At the didtance in your picture, I suspect it would look like an enlongated teardrop.
[16:42] <Lambert> Dr. Suess in KNown Space?
[16:42] <EML> 12Lensman: what laser beam thing?
[16:42] <Lambert> I would not eat tham in the fog, i would no eat them with a Grog
[16:42] <Agincourtdb> one kzin, two kzin, red kzin, blue kzin
[16:42] <Bill> Thank you, Nick ... what's *WRONG* witb it is what I'd like to hear! Serious critiques from you, the experts!
[16:42] <NickE> LOL
[16:42] <Lambert> byeeeee
[16:42] <Fred> 07laser beams coming continuously out of a stepping disc
[16:42] <django> EML: in Throne, a beam weapon transits a disc into the needle
[16:42] * Lambert has quit IRC (Quit: *g0ne*)
[16:43] <django> Lensman: I would not eat them from a tin, I would not eat them with a kzin!
[16:43] <Agincourtdb> hehe
[16:43] <EML> 12I guess I forgot that scene, but that doesn't impact FOW or JOW.
[16:43] <Agincourtdb> who will speak for the grogs?!
[16:43] <Lensman> In one of the Rw sequels, I think _The Ringworld Throne_, it shows a laser beam coming out of a stepping disc and hitting the roof of the Needle. How is that possible, unless a stepping disc is in continuous operation?
[16:43] <SteveS> The number I remember is 20 ft in diameter for the GP hull, which means that each crew cabin would take up a god chunk of the cross section of the hull, with just a little room for a hallway.
[16:44] <frgeek> If a disk has a reset time of a nanosecond or less I can see it transposting a laser.
[16:44] <Lensman> Oh well, that may be a problem which cannot be fixed. If not, better ignored.
[16:44] <django> Lensman: I suppose you could postulate a plasma weapon, then the stream would just be high energy fluid which comes through with its momentum intact
[16:44] <Bill> The dish assemblies are directly stolen from my own model of "Discovery" from "2001.
[16:44] <SteveS> :-)
[16:45] <NickE> Thought they looked familiar. AE-35 units right :-)
[16:45] <django> heh
[16:45] <oneukum> Why would light lose its momentum?
[16:45] <SteveS> I figured that Speaker's horseshoe-shaped control panel would take u a lot of the long, pointy nose.
[16:45] <NickE> yes
[16:46] <Agincourtdb> okay, I have to go join the human race now
[16:46] <NickE> Always had a prblem with the extreme narrowness of teh #2 hull. Very restrictive on space
[16:46] <django> ROFLMAO!
[16:46] <frgeek> IE a one nanosecond legth of laser is tranported, it taked a nanosecond for it to leave the booth/disk, and then the next lenghth is teleported
[16:46] <SteveS> Everything would be really cramped diameter-wise, but they can stretch out along the length.
[16:46] <Agincourtdb> good too hear about FOW and JOW
[16:46] <Lensman> That's true, about 20 ft or according to the game, 6 meters.
[16:46] <django> my chat client has a "novel" theme
[16:46] <Harry_Redd> Adios COurt have a good one.
[16:46] <Agincourtdb> I'll see you guys later
[16:46] <Agincourtdb> :-)
[16:46] <Agincourtdb> enjoy
[16:46] <django> it puts the chat in written style - heh
[16:47] * Agincourtdb has quit IRC
[16:47] <frgeek> Lewis? I am sensing a problem with the AE-35 antenna
[16:47] <EML> 12I can imagine a pulse laser streaming through a stepping disc. It's often the energy density that makes a laser dangerous, not the total energy.
[16:47] <NickE> I guess Narrow Boats on canals are a good analogy, barely more than 8 feet across IIRC
[16:47] <NickE> And folks live on these
[16:48] <Lensman> Yes, if the disc cycles *extremely* fast it will work. What would be the advantage to building it that way? Can you do radio communication thru the stepping discs?
[16:49] <NickE> I would have thought so
[16:49] <Bill> Even for Speaker's arms, there's no way he'd fill a 30' hull diameter ... this is my third try to send this, is there *anybody out there* ...?
[16:49] <Lensman> Fr: Wrong universe!
[16:49] <NickE> They handle a very complex signal anyway, radio is simple by comparison
[16:49] <Harry_Redd> The difference between a byucket of water thrown in your face and the sanme volume through a high pressure Hose Ed?
[16:50] <NickE> probably only a software tweak to tune in EM waves
[16:50] <EML> 12bucket vs. hose: good analogy.
[16:50] <Fred> 07the lander would fill a hull pretty fast
[16:50] <Harry_Redd> Me Bill.
[16:50] <Fred> 07especially given that maybe half of it is already taken up by the hyperdrive
[16:50] <Bill> Sand on the beach, or sand at orbital velocity...?
[16:50] <Lensman> Bill: Can you see this message?
[16:50] <NickE> But the lander was in Hot Needle a #3 hull
[16:51] <NickE> *much* bigger
[16:51] <Fred> 07yeah, I can't find a diameter for a #3 hull . . .
[16:51] <EML> 12Unless stepping discs move stuff faster than light (never said, to my knowledge), there's no advantage to sending radio through a stepping disc.
[16:52] <SteveS> It's 20 feet, and because of the circular cross-section, that width is only for a small part of the "height" of any given room.
[16:52] <NickE> No, but I bet you could if need be
[16:52] <Fred> 0720 feet is the #2 hull
[16:52] <SteveS> (20 ft for #2 hull.)
[16:52] <Lensman> I went *very* carefully thru RE can could not find any specifications for length, width etc. There are some hints, from the size of the lander and the fact Louis doesn't have headroom to do jumping jacks.
[16:52] <NickE> No a #3 is more than 20ft
[16:52] <NickE> Hang on, i'll get the game
[16:52] <Harry_Redd> I'd suspect a disadvantage Ed. Translation lag.
[16:53] <Bill> Crickets chirp ... have I been booted again?
[16:53] <oneukum> They are stated to work at light speed. Security against listening in? Signal loss?
[16:53] <SteveS> I cheated. There are good GP#2 specs in one of the stories from Neutron Star.
[16:53] <Lensman> Yah, the lander and its bay mean the #3 has to be bigger than 30 ft.
[16:53] <frgeek> Ther is an advanage- you do npt have to worry about interferance, and have walls made of a mile of lead.
[16:53] <SteveS> But not in RW.
[16:53] <SteveS> The #3 is bigger that 30', IIRC.
[16:53] <EML> 12I lost track ... whay are we discussing the diameter of GP hulls and/or their roominess?
[16:53] <Harry_Redd> 30 M diameter gives room for 2w or maybe 3 transverse decks Lens.
[16:53] <SteveS> I couldn't find my folder with my original concept blueprints I sketched out on graph paper.
[16:54] * Bill has quit IRC (Ping timeout)
[16:54] * Flying_away is now known as FlyingDragon
[16:54] <Harry_Redd> Ed, a better visual picture of what the ships look like on the inside. I see it as a way to generate a common visual image.
[16:54] <FlyingDragon> Hello, did I miss anything?
[16:54] <Lensman> Lander is 30' x 60 ft. So the #3 has to be at least 38' wide. 40' sounds reasonable.
[16:54] <Harry_Redd> Much Carol, but it's good to sdee you.
[16:55] <NickE> #3 hull 150m long (500 ft) by 35m diameter (over 100ft)
[16:55] <SteveS> We're trying to flesh out what the interior of the Lying Bastard would look like.
[16:55] <SteveS> 40' sounds familiar.
[16:55] <Lensman> Carol: Yah, we're having a great talk with Ed Lerner! You'll have to read the transcript.
[16:55] <Harry_Redd> Welcom Resident Black Belt!
[16:55] <NickE> source Ringworld Companion supplement to the RPG
[16:55] <FlyingDragon> Had a Covenant Group meeting at my house I forgot about until 10 minutes before it was supposed to start.
[16:55] <FlyingDragon> I've got it.
[16:56] <FlyingDragon> Ed Lerner=EML?
[16:56] <NickE> yup
[16:56] <NickE> Hi Carol
[16:56] <EML> 12Yup, that's me.
[16:56] <FlyingDragon> Active?
[16:56] <EML> 12Harry: will the transcript be posted?
[16:56] <Harry_Redd> Flying Dragon is Carol Phillips Ed.
[16:56] <FlyingDragon> Ah, yes. Hi Ed. Thanks for writing w/ Larry and so increasing his output! We appreciate it!
[16:56] <FlyingDragon> At your service!
[16:56] <NickE> I should think so especially interesting ones like this
[16:56] <SeanS> yes
[16:57] <EML> 12Ah, the suspense builds up unbearably :-)
[16:57] * FlyingDragon forgets that EVERYONE isn't intimately aquainted with her!
[16:57] <Harry_Redd> Yes Ed. After Sean gets back and sobers up from the party he's at.
[16:57] <NickE> <sigh>
[16:57] <Lensman> RPG says #3 35 meters x 150 meters. I don't think that's right. IIRC Louis could see the landing bay under the floor of his room/cell in the Needle.
[16:57] <NickE> :-)
[16:57] <SeanS> havent gone to party yet
[16:57] <FlyingDragon> Nice to see you all.
[16:57] <Lensman> And it's specified the lander nearly filled the boat bay.
[16:57] * Bill has joined #knownspace
[16:57] <Harry_Redd> Ok.
[16:58] <Harry_Redd> WB Bill.
[16:58] <NickE> But these things are liner size
[16:58] <EML> 12So are there other enigmas left over from the ringworld series that have folks curious?
[16:58] <Harry_Redd> Many!
[16:58] <NickE> Oh plenty
[16:58] <Bill> If the page said I left, it's a Lying Bastard, too ... I was EVICTED
[16:58] <EML> 12details????
[16:58] <NickE> Such a big playground
[16:59] <Lensman> No clue to how long the Needle was. Maybe if I went back and looked at a description of how high the lava hill was it was embedded in?
[16:59] <NickE> 150m
[16:59] <NickE> it's a big sucker
[16:59] <Harry_Redd> One would suspect there would be effects on many races after the Puppeteers withdraw from KnownSpace. we don't see the effects of that.
[16:59] <Lensman> Enigmas? Oh, Ed, where do we start??
[17:00] <Harry_Redd> Just on Humans.
[17:00] <NickE> Not sure what official connon sizes are (some contention on some specs given)
[17:00] <Lensman> I'd like to see a description of how Scrith is formed, for one. And we've argued over GP hulls a lot-- do they actually have a motor embedded inside the hull, and if so why is it invisible?
[17:00] <Harry_Redd> Intersteller Trade makes races economies "Interactive".
[17:00] <NickE> One of the Bey stories must quote the sizes
[17:01] <EML> 12I promise you'll learn more about GP hulls.
[17:01] <django> neutron star, i think
[17:01] <Harry_Redd> Ed, My take was that GP Hulls are grown around the BIG elements of a ship... Like ENGINES! and their mountings.
[17:02] <Bill> Hey, I bought into the "invisible" mlotor idea ... it's a warp drive, it doesn't require moving parts to bend space.
[17:02] <NickE> Enigmas? Scrith obviously, the genuine timelline fo construction, seeding, speciation etc
[17:02] <Lensman> "Neutron Star" and "At the Core" specify sizes. But there's a discrepancy in the size of the #4 hull (Long Shot). In "At the Core" it's 1000 feet, in Ringworld and RC it's nearly a mile.
[17:02] <EML> 12FOW and JOW won't mention Ringworld, so no news on scrith.
[17:02] <frgeek> I still think that the puppetters have a secret way of sutting down hulls so they cannot be used agaist them. I don't trust puppetters.
[17:03] <NickE> Can't have it all :-)
[17:03] <EML> 12Sigmund doesn't trust Puppeteers, either. What kind of species is willing to be called Puppeteers?
[17:03] <Lensman> Yah, we *really* want a story about how the Ringworld was built. That summary Prosperine gave in RC was only an appetizer!
[17:03] <SteveS> Neutron Star gives #2 as 20' diameter, 300' length.
[17:03] <FlyingDragon> We don't alwasy have a choice in what others call us.
[17:03] <Harry_Redd> Great minds FrGeek. I don'[t trust them either.
[17:03] <NickE> Though the puppeteers had alreday caused the Fall of the Cities by FOW time
[17:04] <FlyingDragon> Most names for Art movements were created as insults by people outside the movement.
[17:04] <oneukum> Would a herbivore be capable of being insulted?
[17:04] <Lensman> I believe the hulls do have a motor inside, and that it *is* invisible. Not impossible with nanotech, I don't think. Not sure how much Puppeteers use nanotech, tho.
[17:04] <SteveS> Bulls sure seem to be!
[17:04] <NickE> More than they are saying I bet
[17:05] <EML> 12FOW and JOW won't contradict Ringworld et. al ... they just don't deal with that topic.
[17:05] <FlyingDragon> Herbevores don't take offence? Why couldn't you insult one? It is intellegence one needs to be insulted (although sometimes it does indeed seem that it is lack thereof)
[17:06] <NickE> Wouldn't necessarily expect them to deal with RW (there's your next project right there :-)
[17:06] <django> Lensman: how about if the hull molecule is bi-state, and the puppeteers can signal the generator to change state?
[17:06] <Bill> Hi, FD ! If you were here, I missed that!
[17:06] <Lensman> Re formation of GP hulls: To reiterate, "At the Core" mentions spacecraft companies that depend on a supply of GP hulls for business, so I'm pretty sure GP makes only the hulls. That's also supported by Bey asking a Puppeteer in "At the Core" if GP is branching out into building complete spaceships.
[17:06] <frgeek> Yes, Prospertine is oblviously a puppetter plant, maybe grown from a vat by either the other Protectors or more likely the puppetters to hide teh fact they are teh ones who built the ringworld. (chime in x-files music) :)
[17:06] <Fred> 07some places say a number 2 hull is 100 feet, and others 100 meters
[17:06] <NickE> That seems fairly clear
[17:06] <oneukum> To be insulted you need to care about status.
[17:07] <EML> 12I'm going to decline to reveal anything about GP makes hulls. Heh heh heh.
[17:07] <CatPasswd> spoilsport
[17:07] <NickE> Now, criticise a puppeteer's mane now....
[17:07] <Harry_Redd> ONe would think that an ALIEN's preception of status wouldn't count against your real status with your race.
[17:07] <Lensman> Django: I can certainly believe the Puppeteers could remotely shut down a hull if they needed to.
[17:07] <NickE> brb
[17:08] <FlyingDragon> SOME puppeteers don't care about their manes, although they do seem to be a bit of a dandy in that regard.
[17:08] <SteveS> I stick with Larry's original size description for #2 hulls, which was very detailed. The other hull sizes aren't as solidly described anywhere.
[17:08] <Harry_Redd> Visualizing the suprise to an alien attacking a puppeteer while insode a GP hull. ;-)
[17:08] <Lensman> I can't really see the Puppeteers feeling "insulted" about getting that label. It's not an insulting term.
[17:09] <FlyingDragon> Don't we as humans care about percieved status with people outside of the status game? I'd think we would still care what people MORE outside the status game felt about our status.
[17:09] <Harry_Redd> Insulting? No. Descritpive? YEA!
[17:09] <django> Lensman: ISTR in Asteroid Queen, the Thrint had a beam weapon which would convert a small percentage of normal matter into antimatter... effect on a GP hull would be interesting...
[17:09] <EML> 12Consider national and ethnic names here on Earth. Some are decidely non-PC, and not used in polite company. The implication is that Puppeteers don't mind the connotation of being manipulative. Why?
[17:09] <Harry_Redd> We might Carol, but would an alien?
[17:10] <FlyingDragon> Maybe they dont' have to subtlties of English down enough to understand it is not a merely discriptive term.
[17:10] <Bill> I built my #2 hull very carefully ... the wing was describes as an oversized delta with comm pods and fusion drive disks that rotated up and down from the wing.
[17:11] <frgeek> Hmm how would you insult a pupeeter? "Hey, your fathers chew beef jerky!"
[17:11] <FlyingDragon> I mean visually discriptive/
[17:11] <Harry_Redd> Perhaps they consider it a "double Blind". Call them manipulators often enough and when they DO manipulate, it is disregarded.
[17:11] * FlyingDragon laughs at frgeek
[17:11] <Lensman> Django: I don't consider MKW stories canonical. However, there's a rateher glaring weakness of GP hulls never exploited. They are proof against temperature into, what was it, several thousand degrees? So you use a Puppeteer disintegrator, and create a fusion point against the hull. Poof! No more hull.
[17:11] <Harry_Redd> Insult? YOU BELONG IN THE FRONT RANK!
[17:12] <EML> 12Puppeeters are always described as fluent speakers of Interworld. I'm inclined to think they understand the implications of the name humans give them.
[17:12] <NickE> agreed
[17:13] <Fred> 07<SteveS> I stick with Larry's original size description for #2 hulls, which was very detailed. The other hull sizes aren't as solidly described anywhere.
[17:13] <NickE> skilled in communication
[17:13] <Fred> 07#1 is a sphere the size of a basketball
[17:13] <django> sorry to chat & dash, but I have to pick up a friend at pierson in an hour - ttfn
[17:13] <NickE> bye Neil
[17:13] <Fred> 07#4 is a sphere either a mile across or around, take your pick :)
[17:13] <Harry_Redd> The Chineese call all non chineese FOREIGH DEVILS. Some people care about it, most don't.
[17:13] <EML> 12pack a trillion people onto a world, and we'd learn to communicate, too.
[17:13] <django> catch you all at the post-chat chat, if there is one this time ;)
[17:13] <FlyingDragon> Is it really a HULL if it is a storage container? Are their PEOPLE that small? Even the bebebeque arent' small enough.
[17:13] <Lensman> Ed: Frankly I never gave it much thought. I presume the name got established in Human culture before there was a lot of contact. After that, it would be hard to change by outside pressure. And of course, that fan of Cecil the Seasick Sea Serpent had no idea the label he hung on them was appropriate in more than one way!
[17:14] <FlyingDragon> I;ll be here later, but can't stay long now.
[17:14] <django> Harry_Redd: Gwailohs
[17:14] <Harry_Redd> Adios Neil.
[17:14] * django has quit IRC (Quit: This foreign devil is leaving :))
[17:14] <Harry_Redd> Pack a trillion people into one world and you end up with a common language.
[17:15] <Fred> 07why?
[17:15] <frgeek> And why ar etehy called "pierson's" puppeters? forgive me if thsi is common knowlege here
[17:15] <Fred> 07the more people we pack into a city now, the more languages we get, not less
[17:15] <SteveS> First human to see one was Olaf Pierson.
[17:15] <NickE> The guy who saw them was called Pierson
[17:15] <EML> 12okay, take "foreign devils." my guess is that Chinese *diplomats* don't use the term while working.
[17:15] <Lensman> Pierson is the name of the human who made first contact with Puppeteers.
[17:15] <Fred> 07what nick said
[17:15] <Harry_Redd> Carol, the storage container for a nut is sometimes called a HULL.
[17:16] <FlyingDragon> Yes, Redd. I see.
[17:16] <Harry_Redd> Pierson Discovered them FrGeek. He'd been watching the BBEANIE & CECIL Revival shows.
[17:16] <FlyingDragon> Thought abotu nameing Keegan Peirson. After all, he is "Peter's Son"
[17:16] <Lensman> Everyone inside a GP hull is a nut? :)
[17:17] <Harry_Redd> No, they don't Ed, they use the National noun or proper names of the people involved.
[17:17] <Fred> 07here's a quote from THE SOFT WEAPON, if it's not too long:
[17:17] <Fred> 07The first man to see a puppeteer had done so during a Campish revival of "Time for Beany" reruns. He had come running back to the scout ship, breathless and terrified, screaming, "Take off! The planet's full of monsters!"
[17:17] <Fred> 07oops. too long
[17:17] <Lensman> Worldwide electronic communication would seem to eventually result in a common language. That's already happening here on Earth, and Puppeteer culture is very old.
[17:17] <Fred> 07oh, no it wasn't, just lagged. I thought the hyperspace monsters got it
[17:18] <Lensman> LOL
[17:18] <FlyingDragon> So, the puppetters allowed the ship to land with no interferance.
[17:18] <Fred> 07yeah, and the planet was FULL of them
[17:18] <Harry_Redd> Why not Carol. New Trading clients!
[17:18] <EML> 12The first contact was not on a Pupeeter world.
[17:18] <Lensman> I'm *not* assuming the first contact with Puppeteers was on the puppeteer homeworld. In fact, it seems extremely unlikely.
[17:19] <Lensman> Echo... echo...
[17:19] <NickE> Impossible I'd bet
[17:19] <Fred> 07if it had been, they'd hae never told the story :)
[17:19] <SteveS> Exactly.
[17:19] <EML> 12EML
[17:19] <Lensman> That's right, they would have bribed/blackmailed him to keep quiet.
[17:19] <Harry_Redd> Memory wipe is a marvelous thing.
[17:19] * Bill has quit IRC (Connection reset by peer)
[17:19] <frgeek> Thanks I did not remember that
[17:20] <SeanS> This looks to be an excellent chat log... I will pack it up and shoot it to Mark Firestone first thing in the morning.
[17:20] <NickE> Bill's not having much luck
[17:20] <NickE> Good idea Sean. Been v interesting
[17:20] <Lensman> Carol's story ("A Different Kind of Loving") gives Puppeteers memory wipe technology. Is that anywhere in the canon?
[17:20] <Harry_Redd> It mostlikely will be posted in the LOG Section of knownspace.org.
[17:20] <NickE> MAny Kinds Of Loving
[17:20] <Lensman> Sorry
[17:21] <NickE> no big
[17:21] <SeanS> depending on Mark's schedule, it should be posted on larryniven.org sometime tomorrow
[17:21] <FlyingDragon> What? MKOL? I dotn' want it posted.
[17:22] <oneukum> It is getting late here. Good bye.
[17:22] <SeanS> no, the log
[17:22] <Lensman> Bye Oliver
[17:22] <FlyingDragon> g'bye, oliver
[17:22] * oneukum has quit IRC
[17:22] <EML> 12Anyone mind of I link to today's chatlog from my website?
[17:22] <FlyingDragon> Sean, ah
[17:22] <Harry_Redd> Adios Oliver.
[17:22] <Lensman> Oh, we'll be famous! :)
[17:22] <Harry_Redd> Sean, Send Ed a copy please.
[17:22] <FlyingDragon> EML, are you interested in reading my fan story? Larry liked it, although he didn't care for the ending.
Continue to Part 2