Dec 01 16:56:31 <Fred> now I will copy paste your statement back to you
Dec 01 16:56:34 <EML> Sean: I hear you. I don't do much shopping for myself this time of year, either.
Dec 01 16:56:35 <SeanS> tho i doubt my parents truly understand why i would want gigabit ethernet cards instead of a nice sweater
Dec 01 16:57:05 <Dan> I think the codes only show up depending on what the format is for th copied/pasted document.
Dec 01 16:57:08 <Fred> [14:54] <Hippy> "I just like the elegance of updating word counts in the master document, numbering the fields for chapter headings properly, doing exotic things with the page numbering, indeed doing anything other than writing the actual text."
Dec 01 16:57:56 <Hippy> Yes, I think Dan's right. The codes are because Fred is copying and pasting those 'special' quotes that are different for opening and closing quotes
Dec 01 16:58:15 <EML> So, back to Larry's stopover ... did he forecast an availability for Inferno II?
Dec 01 16:58:15 <Hippy> Mysterious, but not mysterious enough to be the work of the Puppeteers
Dec 01 16:58:22 <SeanS> next september
Dec 01 16:58:33 <Lensman_free> Re continuity & transfer booth tech: see http://www.freewebs.com/knownspace/en4.htm/#tra3con
Dec 01 16:58:36 <Fred> Isn't that a line from the MST3K song? "Because Fred used thos 'special' marks, to quote his robot FRiEnDs"
Dec 01 16:58:44 <Hippy> He wasn't sure about it being in hardcover but he said that would be the way to bet
Dec 01 16:58:47 <SeanS> LOL, Fred
Dec 01 16:58:47 <Dan> Yeah, the file Ed's copying from is in some format that IRC can't fully translate.
Dec 01 16:59:10 <EML> Huh? I'm not copying anything.
Dec 01 16:59:20 <Fred> I think he meant Fred
Dec 01 16:59:23 <senax> Gotta run...see you guys later.
Dec 01 16:59:24 <Fred> and dropped the FR
Dec 01 16:59:28 * senax (~senax@24.252.63.XXX) has left #knownspace
Dec 01 16:59:30 <Dan> You *typed* those quotes?
Dec 01 16:59:31 <Hippy> 'Bye, Senax
Dec 01 16:59:33 <Lensman_free> Ringworld says the transfer booths had been around for IIRC 300 years. Per FOW that's after first contact w/ Puppeteers.
Dec 01 17:00:17 <SeanS> it just depends on what your client has been programmed to interpret. the server just bounces the 1's and 0's back to everybody
Dec 01 17:00:26 <Hippy> So is there anything left that humans actually invented?
Dec 01 17:00:42 <Fred> In three-and-a-half centuries the transfer booths had done this to the infinite variety of Earth.
Dec 01 17:00:55 <Dan> Sex, and chocolate.
Dec 01 17:01:12 <EML> I know we considered the timing of transfer booths relative to FLEET and RINGWORLD ... it's just been to long to reconstruct sources on the fly.
Dec 01 17:01:16 <Lensman_free> Diana identified "Elephant" as Pelton, not Sharrol.
Dec 01 17:01:30 <Fred> nope
Dec 01 17:01:43 <Fred> I'm copy/pasting the quote :)
Dec 01 17:02:41 <Fred> 201cSure,201d said Sharrol. 201cHis real name is Gregory Pelton.201d
Dec 01 17:03:04 <Hippy> Dan: not bad. I was thinking that humans were launching themselves across the void armed with their one great invention, the pre-moistened towellette
Dec 01 17:03:08 <Fred> please forgive the quotation marks where applicable
Dec 01 17:03:10 <Lensman_free> Hippy: Basically, FOW says Humans didn't invent anything after the Man-Kzin Wars. Nothing important, anyway. Those nasty ARMs, suppressing technology!
Dec 01 17:03:34 <Hippy> Think of the Kzinti: fur all gummed up with fried sthondat and coleslaw, but no way to clean themselves up
Dec 01 17:03:40 <SeanS> that just means it was invented and suppressed... but with a record of it in the arm databanks
Dec 01 17:04:07 <EML> I found the spot in FLEET, chapter 10. Puppeteers first contacted humans 150 years before FLEET, making it 350 years before Ringworld.
Dec 01 17:04:30 <Fred> hah! making it concurrent with the 'invention' of the transfer booth
Dec 01 17:04:33 <Fred> well done sir
Dec 01 17:04:36 <Hippy> Sot that's 2490
Dec 01 17:04:45 <Lensman_free> Oops! You're right, it WAS Sharrol who told Bey that "Elephant" was Gregory Pelton.
Dec 01 17:05:20 <Hippy> Hmm. You could have a good guess at the age of Pelton's great to the eighth grandmother from that data
Dec 01 17:05:43 <Fred> so this is off by 100 years
Dec 01 17:05:57 <Fred> they have transfer booths in 2400, and Pierson in 2500
Dec 01 17:06:00 <Lensman_free> Age of Pelton's grandma is discussed in the link I gave.
Dec 01 17:06:23 <Lensman_free> She was *not* young when she developed the booth!
Dec 01 17:06:28 <Fred> their transfer booth dating looks to be from various MKW sources
Dec 01 17:06:31 <Hippy> As I knew it would be, Lens
Dec 01 17:07:09 <EML> With boosterspice, you don't know how old Grandma was when she introduced transfer booths.
Dec 01 17:07:16 <Lensman_free> Where does it say they had transfer booths in 2400?
Dec 01 17:07:42 <Fred> about 2400*
Dec 01 17:07:47 <Fred> http://www.chronology.org/niven/
Dec 01 17:07:58 <Hippy> You can take a stab at it, though, Ed. She'd be eight generations - hang on, ten generations older than Pelton
Dec 01 17:08:09 <Lensman_free> Rw says 300 yrs before, making it 2550.
Dec 01 17:08:21 <Fred> Ringworld says 350
Dec 01 17:08:28 <Fred> I just quoted it lensy :)
Dec 01 17:08:34 <Fred> three and a half centuries
Dec 01 17:09:24 <EML> I just checked myself. RINGWORLD says 350. I assume that, in case of contradictions, the bestselling bookk wins.
Dec 01 17:09:25 <Lensman_free> www.chronology.org/niven references a non-Niven MKW story. Sorry, that doesn't count.
Dec 01 17:09:42 <Fred> agreed
Dec 01 17:09:43 <Lensman_free> Sorry, Fred!
Dec 01 17:09:52 <Fred> I said as much!
Dec 01 17:09:56 <Fred> or inferred it anyway
Dec 01 17:10:04 <Hippy> Well, there's that doctine in Islam that where there is a contradiction, the later item is the correct one
Dec 01 17:10:15 <Lensman_free> Fred, I'm trying to skim here, sorry if I'm not catching everything.
Dec 01 17:10:42 <Fred> hey, the chronology has incorporated FoW
Dec 01 17:11:01 <Hippy> That was quick
Dec 01 17:11:02 <Lensman_free> Larry said what's said in later stories is to be preferred to earlier. But he didn't mean stories he didn't write!
Dec 01 17:11:15 <Fred> I reject that
Dec 01 17:11:24 <Fred> Ringworld trumps all sequels
Dec 01 17:11:31 <Fred> sorry, larry
Dec 01 17:11:41 <Hippy> In the case of Ringworld's Children I would have to agree
Dec 01 17:11:53 <Fred> that's what I was thinking about, right there
Dec 01 17:11:58 <Hippy> I'll take the other two as being doctrine, though
Dec 01 17:12:17 <Fred> I don't think there's anything incontrivertible in them though
Dec 01 17:12:32 <Fred> the distance and number of shadow squares, but we can take those as typos
Dec 01 17:12:33 <SeanS> my dog decided that it was time for me to throw the log for him
Dec 01 17:12:56 <Fred> the way a #4 hull is sometimes referred to as 'a mile across' or 'a mile around'
Dec 01 17:12:58 <Lensman_free> Huh! That's odd, when I e-mailed Carlson to ask if he had notes for his dates he told me he hadn't updated it in a long time. Maybe I nudged him?
Dec 01 17:13:10 <Fred> he's got the Long Pass in there
Dec 01 17:13:11 <Hippy> If only he could type, Sean. He could come on here and not bother you
Dec 01 17:13:29 <Fred> I didn't look further once I saw that, since I haven't finished FoW
Dec 01 17:14:17 <EML> Huh. I hadn't noticed that update either.
Dec 01 17:14:20 <SeanS> i havent taught him to fetch me a beer yet so touch typing is a little further down the road
Dec 01 17:14:46 <Lensman_free> Anyway... I agree with Ed, the dates for transfer motor tech do fit if we assume the tech was licensed from Puppeteers.
Dec 01 17:14:52 <Fred> I was searching for the phrase 'puppeteer' and it landed on the long pass ref
Dec 01 17:15:20 <Fred> and, yes, GP contact and the invention of the transfer booth seem to be simultaneous
Dec 01 17:15:22 * Lensman_free is now known as Lensman
Dec 01 17:15:38 <Fred> grammy pelton must have been rich to start with though :)
Dec 01 17:15:58 <Hippy> Now, what did we use to pay the Puppeteers? What value would cash have to them?
Dec 01 17:16:14 <Dan> She inherited that fourtune from the Pre-Moistened-Towelette.
Dec 01 17:16:20 <Dan> :)
Dec 01 17:16:22 <Fred> we gave them campy reruns of Time for Beany
Dec 01 17:16:24 <SeanS> couple of super tankers worth of warm carrot juce
Dec 01 17:16:27 <Hippy> Well, she had around 200 years to acquire the wealth
Dec 01 17:16:27 <EML> Hippy ... can't answer that w/o a spoiler
Dec 01 17:16:31 <Fred> they enjoyed watching their ancestors
Dec 01 17:16:38 <Lensman> If you think it thru... Elephant cannot be the oldest living Pelton. Maybe the elders have retired and left him the reins of the corporation, tho.
Dec 01 17:17:17 <Hippy> I'm impressed that you gave it some thought at all, Ed. I know, I know. . .Juggler
Dec 01 17:17:32 <Lensman> Hippy: Yah you really need to read FOW! Let's just say the Puppeteers had motives other than profit from the backward Humans.
Dec 01 17:17:49 <EML> Elephant is a bit of an absentee owner, with lots of gallivanting time.
Dec 01 17:17:57 <Hippy> Lens: why isn't Pelton the oldest living Pelton?
Dec 01 17:18:04 <Fred> elephant could easily be the oldest living pelton
Dec 01 17:18:12 <Fred> if the rest of them are as reckless as he is
Dec 01 17:18:39 <Dan> Elephant could easily be the *only* living Pelton. We don't have more info about his family.
Dec 01 17:18:40 <EML> He's even more reckless than you know.
Dec 01 17:18:46 <Lensman> Hippy: Boosterspice. His grandma was like 175+ when she "invented" the transfer booths. Elephant must have lots of older relatives still alive.
Dec 01 17:19:06 <Lensman> Dan: Okay, it's *possible* but highly unlikely.
Dec 01 17:19:19 <Hippy> That's a a reasonable hypothesis, but by no means proven. A lot of them may have been eaten in the MKWs
Dec 01 17:19:42 <Dan> Lens, I respectfully disagree. Without further info, it's still 50/50.
Dec 01 17:19:49 <Hippy> Also, how old is Pelton, anyway? Larch Bellamy was 300+ and Margo was his mother, so Pelton could be quite old
Dec 01 17:20:06 <Lensman> Again, see the link I posted for discussion of how old Elephant is.
Dec 01 17:20:12 <Hippy> Ed: don't tell me we didn't invent boosterspice. Surely that was a human invention??
Dec 01 17:20:19 <Fred> no
Dec 01 17:20:24 <Fred> boosterspice is from jinx
Dec 01 17:20:27 <Hippy> I shall do, Lens
Dec 01 17:20:33 <Fred> well, semi human
Dec 01 17:20:42 <EML> At the moment, I have no opinion on boosterspice.
Dec 01 17:20:49 <Hippy> So, a bandersnatch invention?? NO!!!!
Dec 01 17:20:59 <SeanS> someone carved up the genes of a ragweed on jinx to make boosterspice
Dec 01 17:21:09 <Lensman> Boosterspice was a human development, altho RC suggests it was developed from the tree-of-life virus in Phssthpok's ship, not ragweed as said earlier.
Dec 01 17:21:15 <Fred> jinxian scientists, but that might be MKW too
Dec 01 17:21:52 <EML> Oh, those Jinxian scientists.
Dec 01 17:21:53 <SeanS> i think the jinx-booster spice link is in there is a tide
Dec 01 17:21:59 <xihr> I'm not a bot, just an idle client :-)
Dec 01 17:22:01 <Lensman> However, the RC was just speculation on Louis' part, so third-person-omniscient narration trumps that... canon still says it's ragweed.
Dec 01 17:22:16 <Dan> xihr spoke!
Dec 01 17:22:21 <Dan> LOL!
Dec 01 17:22:22 <Hippy> Hello xihr!!!
Dec 01 17:22:33 <xihr> hi
Dec 01 17:22:36 <Lensman> And BTW Larry specifically said in the FOW chat that third-person-omniscient trumps speculation by anybody.
Dec 01 17:22:52 <Lensman> Welcome xihr! We were thinking you were a ghost!
Dec 01 17:23:02 <Dan> Yeah, narrators usually aren't allowed to lie.
Dec 01 17:23:15 <Hippy> Except Agatha Christie
Dec 01 17:23:50 <Lensman> LOL! Is that a reference to /His Last Bow/ (Final Bow??)
Dec 01 17:23:54 <Dan> Well, she's the exception that proves the rule. And anyway, Agatha mostly only lied by ommision.
Dec 01 17:24:10 <Hippy> It's a quote from the FoW chat
Dec 01 17:24:11 <Lensman> Oh! No that was /Curtain/
Dec 01 17:24:14 <Hippy> Larry said it
Dec 01 17:24:29 <Lensman> Yes, but I'm trying to figure out what story he was referring to.
Dec 01 17:24:42 <Lensman> Or maybe just her stuff in general?
Dec 01 17:25:04 <Hippy> I think her stuff in general. But the answer to that question is in 'Juggler', isn't it?
Dec 01 17:25:06 <EML> It's not always clear, BTW, when RINGWORLD scenes are in Louis Wu's POV and when they're omnisienct POV.
Dec 01 17:25:26 <Hippy> True, Ed
Dec 01 17:25:29 <EML> It's a mystery to me :-)
Dec 01 17:25:45 <Hippy> <smirk>
Dec 01 17:25:59 <Fred> jinx-boosterspice isn't from 'there is a tide'
Dec 01 17:26:18 <Hippy> So, xihr, tell us a bit about yourself. Your hopes, dreams, fears, attitude toward pre-moistened towellettes. . .
Dec 01 17:26:31 <SeanS> ringworld then?
Dec 01 17:26:32 <Dan> Fred, I think it's from "Ringworld."
Dec 01 17:26:35 <Hippy> I think it's actually Ringworld
Dec 01 17:26:39 <Fred> yeah, I was thinking that
Dec 01 17:26:47 <Fred> when he tells teela scars go away
Dec 01 17:26:49 <Fred> checking
Dec 01 17:26:56 <Hippy> The Jinx link might be from the game
Dec 01 17:27:06 <SeanS> its in one of the books
Dec 01 17:27:30 <Dan> No, I've never seen the game and I remember reading the line.
Dec 01 17:27:30 <SeanS> either tide or ringworld to explain the sabatical or the 200 year birthday party
Dec 01 17:27:45 <Hippy> Originally from the game and then put into the books? Ed? What does 'Juggler' have to say?
Dec 01 17:27:55 <Fred> nope. not ringworld either
Dec 01 17:28:02 * Hippy promises to give up these references to Juggler once he's read 'Fleet'
Dec 01 17:28:08 <SeanS> the game by definition had to come after ringworld
Dec 01 17:28:11 <Fred> all ringworld says is:
Dec 01 17:28:14 <Fred> "Right. A few centuries ago some biological engineers carved up the genes of a ragweed and produced boosterspice."
Dec 01 17:28:37 <Fred> it's not tide or ringworld
Dec 01 17:28:58 <EML> Both TIDE and RINGOWLRD talk about sabbaticals. TIDE mentions the possibility of a 1000-year lifespan.
Dec 01 17:29:00 * Hippy wishes he could read well enough to get out the game and check it
Dec 01 17:29:26 <Dan> Check "Grendal" (SP?)
Dec 01 17:29:48 <Hippy> Actually, that's a good thought, Dan
Dec 01 17:29:52 <SeanS> maybe the game expanded on ringworld to say that those engineers were from the institute of knowledge on jinx
Dec 01 17:30:09 <Hippy> That's what I remember, Sean
Dec 01 17:30:09 <Fred> I don't have grend ala carte. anybody know what collection it's in?
Dec 01 17:30:11 <SeanS> i cant remember
Dec 01 17:30:27 <Hippy> "Neutron Star'
Dec 01 17:30:55 <EML> Yup. Grendel says "Jinxian lab." It's part of CRASHLANDER.
Dec 01 17:31:41 <SeanS> wow, a half hour discussion and numerous text searches to see if my memory checked out ;)
Dec 01 17:31:59 <EML> But Grendel does not say what plant (or whatnot) is the underlying source of boosterspice.
Dec 01 17:32:19 <Dan> Alsoin Crashlander.
Dec 01 17:32:54 <SeanS> well, apparently fleet and juggler are going to trump everything so i reckon i need to go on and get fleet
Dec 01 17:33:09 <Dan> Oh, well that's what I miss by actually having to get up and look at the bookshelves. LOL!
Dec 01 17:33:25 <Fred> got it
Dec 01 17:33:29 <Fred> How many times can you change your morals without losing them all? Bellamy was born before a certain Jinxian biological laboratory produced boosterspice.
Dec 01 17:33:53 <Hippy> Well, that's pretty conclusive
Dec 01 17:34:06 <Lensman> You "could" just look at the "boosterspice" entry at the Incompleat Known Space Concordance to see what stories it's in...
Dec 01 17:34:08 <Fred> doesn't have to be ON jinx though :)
Dec 01 17:34:22 <Hippy> The game mentions that ragweed is a notoriously hardy plant. Luckily, because I'd never heard of it before Ringworld
Dec 01 17:34:28 <EML> If we did things right, FOW and JOW don't trump anything, only shed light in the dark corners.
Dec 01 17:34:44 <Hippy> Lens: where would be the fun in that?
Dec 01 17:35:24 <SeanS> what story was that in, fred?
Dec 01 17:35:35 <SeanS> point taken, ed
Dec 01 17:36:12 <Hippy> Good God, 9:30 I shall be away briefly to dress myself but will be back in about fifteen minutes
Dec 01 17:36:27 <Lensman> FOW trumps the references to using hyperwave pulses for deep-radar. But I consider that a *good* retcon, as older references aren't consistant.
Dec 01 17:36:32 * Hippy is now known as The_Absent_Hippy
Dec 01 17:36:36 <EML> aromas of dinner are starting to waft into my den. I suspect i will be dropping off soon.
Dec 01 17:36:37 <Dan> Never heard of ragweed? Wow! It's the single most mentioned plant when people discuss alergies to polen, or was before it became known that pine trees and yard grass also induced polen-related alergies.
Dec 01 17:36:47 <The_Absent_Hippy> Did I tell you how much I like this no limit on the length of names, Sean?
Dec 01 17:36:54 <SeanS> i noticed
Dec 01 17:37:52 <SeanS> i dont think there is a limit. i just didnt set one. the server might come with one as a default
Dec 01 17:37:58 <EML> yeah, well, when past stories are inconsistent, sometimes it's impractical not to contradict *something*
Dec 01 17:38:04 <Lensman> Yard grass gives me problems, but I think mold is even worse for my allergies.
Dec 01 17:38:05 <SeanS> very true
Dec 01 17:38:24 * Tanada (~Tanada@216.86.81.47) has joined #knownspace
Dec 01 17:38:31 * Tanada has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)
Dec 01 17:38:31 <SeanS> hi tanada
Dec 01 17:38:34 <SeanS> bye tanada
Dec 01 17:38:35 <Lensman> Welcome Tanada!
Dec 01 17:38:40 * Tanada (~Tanada@216.86.81.47) has joined #knownspace
Dec 01 17:38:44 <SeanS> wb tanada
Dec 01 17:38:47 <Dan> Helo Tanada.
Dec 01 17:38:52 <Tanada> Olah
Dec 01 17:38:56 <Lensman> Come when you can stay awhile, Tanada! :)
Dec 01 17:39:01 <EML> ola
Dec 01 17:39:03 <Tanada> or however the hell you say it Hi everyone
Dec 01 17:39:22 <Tanada> just got off work
Dec 01 17:39:43 <Lensman> If you're trying for Espanol, it's "Hola".
Dec 01 17:39:52 <Fred> grendel, sean
Dec 01 17:39:56 <SeanS> k
Dec 01 17:40:13 <Tanada> How about in Esperanto, the language we were all suppossed to be speaking by now
Dec 01 17:40:27 <Lensman> Forry Ackerman would approve.
Dec 01 17:40:27 <SeanS> i never learned esperanto
Dec 01 17:40:28 <Fred> only The Shat is fluent in Esperanto
Dec 01 17:40:47 <Lensman> Was Shatner in that one movie they made in Esperanto?
Dec 01 17:40:51 <Fred> si
Dec 01 17:40:57 <EML> Okay, all ... I'm off to dinner. Have a good one.
Dec 01 17:41:05 <Fred> eat one for me!
Dec 01 17:41:06 <Lensman> Ah, my company has finally arrived.
Dec 01 17:41:12 * Lensman is now known as Lensman_free
Dec 01 17:41:13 <Dan> Not to be confused with "UUUULllaaaaaaa" Which is Martian for "where's the antibiotics? These humans have given me the flu!"
Dec 01 17:41:33 * EML has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)
Dec 01 17:42:13 <Tanada> Shatner can't be the only one....or can he?
Dec 01 17:43:47 <Dan> LOL!
Dec 01 17:45:25 <Tanada> Has Paris ever gone a decade without someone rioting in the streets?
Dec 01 17:45:32 <Dan> The Shat is a conversation-killer.
Dec 01 17:45:56 <Fred> The Shat rocks!
Dec 01 17:46:13 <Fred> I'm boycotting the new Crap Trek unless they put him back in
Dec 01 17:46:56 <SeanS> well, i will be afk for a bit. gf just came in and said she was starving
Dec 01 17:47:20 <xihr> Incubus
Dec 01 17:47:45 <Tanada> Imagine the youth of Paris rioting in Picards day and age
Dec 01 17:47:52 <Tanada> oops not very KS I know
Dec 01 17:48:12 <Dan> Set your Phasers to "proters?"
Dec 01 17:48:17 <Dan> protest.
Dec 01 17:48:19 <Fred> the french police would immediately surrender
Dec 01 17:48:41 <Dan> LOL, my typose got worse when I started typing with both hands again.
Dec 01 17:48:47 <Dan> See?
Dec 01 17:48:50 <Dan> :)
Dec 01 17:48:54 <Fred> they'd be throwing escargot croissants at each other
Dec 01 17:49:07 <Fred> and yellling taunts like John Cleese
Dec 01 17:50:43 <Tanada> lol
Dec 01 17:53:03 <Dan> "Go away or I shall taunt you some more..."
Dec 01 17:53:51 <Dan> Well, shall we change the subject? Or just get silly?
Dec 01 17:55:22 <Tanada> OK how about....organleggers and the freezer klaw
Dec 01 17:55:25 <Tanada> law that is
Dec 01 17:55:34 <Fred> the freezer klaw?
Dec 01 17:55:44 <Fred> I remember him from Fantastic Four
Dec 01 17:55:47 <Dan> Sounds like a New Wave band.
Dec 01 17:57:45 <Tanada> LOL, I was referring to the freezer laws passed while GIL was an ARM
Dec 01 17:58:16 <Tanada> They took all the poor frozen dead and usef them for organ bank transplants under the first law
Dec 01 17:58:57 <Tanada> The proposed and defeated second freezer law was to take all the frozen insane people for the organ banks.
Dec 01 17:59:40 <Tanada> It was defeated the first time around after GIL caught on to the fact that Anubis, a major organlegger, was using the law to refinance his return
Dec 01 18:00:54 <Dan> Well, we nevr found out if the organleggers tried again with better secrecy.
Dec 01 18:02:04 * The_Absent_Hippy is now known as CleansedMan
Dec 01 18:03:09 <Tanada> I don't think the freezer laws would stop there, for instance even if you leave the insane alone what about the brain dead and/or the severly injured?
Dec 01 18:03:31 <Tanada> They are brain dead frozen dead, why wouldn't you put them in the organ banks?
Dec 01 18:04:51 <Dan> I think the freezer laws would gradually increase until no one frozen was safe from being broken up for spare parts.
Dec 01 18:05:33 <Dan> And then the practice would die out becasue of the fear that they'd wake up as donor parts.
Dec 01 18:06:17 <CleansedMan> That''s a point, Dan
Dec 01 18:06:25 * CleansedMan is now known as Hippy
Dec 01 18:06:27 <Tanada> well the first freezer law pretty much killed the idea of people voluntarily going into the freezer tanks, GIL asks one of the tenders and he says basically nobody is being frozen any more
Dec 01 18:06:33 <Hippy> So much for my pun on 'Lensman'. He's gone
Dec 01 18:07:15 <Hippy> Well, improvements in medicine mans that people wouldn't have to freeze themselves to await a cure that already existed
Dec 01 18:07:28 <Hippy> But they might have to freeze themselves to save up the money for the cure
Dec 01 18:07:36 <Tanada> Imagine that, the first freezer law cleaned out 30% of world freezer capacity and nobody wanted to refill those slots
Dec 01 18:07:53 <Dan> Shows good sense, to my mind.
Dec 01 18:08:25 <Dan> Why take the chance that you'd become someone's unwilling transplant doner?
Dec 01 18:08:32 <Tanada> A line I think I remember from THE DEFENSELESS DEAD, its hard to defend yourself when your frozen dead
Dec 01 18:08:56 <Hippy> On the moon you have 'remand freezers' while you await trial. Perhaps they could use the empty freezers for that
Dec 01 18:09:38 <Tanada> Up until Naomi nobody had ever been retreived
Dec 01 18:09:58 <Dan> I could see it catching on as an alternative to prisons, until the felons got thawed and released, then ran rampant.
Dec 01 18:10:19 <Tanada> LOL, kind of like Demolition Man with Stalone?
Dec 01 18:10:28 <Hippy> But the problem with alternatives to prison is that it keeps organs off the market, so to speak
Dec 01 18:10:59 <Hippy> Sorry, I mean alternatives to prisons that still act like prisons
Dec 01 18:11:06 <Dan> There's a scene at the end of Knightrider 2000 where Charles Manson was about to be thawed nd released.
Dec 01 18:11:57 <Hippy> In Gil's time they would probably cure him. Like with Leviticus Hale
Dec 01 18:12:02 <Dan> And isn't *that* thought enough to shrink th 'nads off of the Marques de Sade?
Dec 01 18:12:32 <Hippy> What about Ed Bundy? Even worse
Dec 01 18:12:46 <Tanada> Charlie Manson would be long dead if it were not for a poorly thought out Supream Court decision in the 1970's
Dec 01 18:13:00 <Tanada> I trhink you mean TED Bundy
Dec 01 18:13:12 <Dan> Or Al Bundy.
Dec 01 18:13:21 <Hippy> Er. . .the one not from 'Married With Children'
Dec 01 18:13:52 <Hippy> I probably do mean Ted Bundy. From Florida if I recall correctly
Dec 01 18:13:54 <Dan> Both are hidious monsters that should never be allowed out in public again.
Dec 01 18:14:42 <Hippy> Would you take one of their organs if it was offered?
Dec 01 18:15:09 <Dan> Only to microwave into ash.
Dec 01 18:16:32 <Dan> I'm assuming that I'd never be told *where* a transplant came from.
Dec 01 18:16:47 <Tanada> If I could get a new set of digestive organs that were healthy then HELL YES I would take them from a killer
Dec 01 18:16:53 <NickE> back
Dec 01 18:17:07 <Tanada> wb Nick
Dec 01 18:17:16 <NickE> catching up
Dec 01 18:19:24 <Hippy> Me, too.
Dec 01 18:19:48 <Hippy> I've actually had organ transplants (corneas) but they are very strict about the privacy of the donor here
Dec 01 18:20:30 <Hippy> Now, let us say you have a killer and a small child who died in a car accident. Whose organs would you take then?
Dec 01 18:20:39 <Tanada> both
Dec 01 18:20:54 <Hippy> Same here.
Dec 01 18:21:02 <Tanada> dead is dead, does the dead child need their organs any more?
Dec 01 18:21:14 <Dan> I can't see why people would be told where their transplants came from. Surely the donors have a right to privacy?
Dec 01 18:21:19 <Tanada> not to be gruesome but accidents happen all the time
Dec 01 18:21:52 <Hippy> Okay. Now suppose you have a child that is likely to die early, because of starvation, war, pestilence, whatever. Is it right to euthenase them and then use their organs for someone with a better chance of having a long, productive life?
Dec 01 18:22:13 <Tanada> No, the ENDS never justify the MEANS
Dec 01 18:22:24 <Hippy> I was under the impression that in America it was routine to tell the recipient who the donor was
Dec 01 18:22:49 <Tanada> And if you feed that child they will grow itno a healthy adult, run 6 red lights and end up in the organ banks anyhow ;)
Dec 01 18:23:03 <Hippy> But the child will die anyway. Why not at least guarantee someone a healthy life rather than let two people die?
Dec 01 18:23:36 * Hippy should be putting smiley faces here but I'm liking the implications. Just like re-writing 'The Jigsaw Man'
Dec 01 18:23:42 <Tanada> If you have the technology to transplant organs you have more than enough technology to feed everyone a healthy diet
Dec 01 18:24:11 <Hippy> Present reality would dispute that, thouhg
Dec 01 18:24:14 <Tanada> and you said LIKELY not CERTAIN
Dec 01 18:24:29 <Dan> Nope, it's routene to hide the donor's ID from the recipient forever, unless the donor's family decide to tell. The doctors won't tell even under threat of lawyers.
Dec 01 18:24:45 <Hippy> Well, greater than a given percentage - let's say 50% to start with
Dec 01 18:24:57 <Tanada> Not at all, we have the technology to feed everyone on this planet well, what we lack is the pollitical will to stop strongmen from stealing food from the defenseless living
Dec 01 18:25:11 <Hippy> Same down here, Dan
Dec 01 18:25:49 <Tanada> You could solve the kidnet shortage inside a year if you paid the donor for a live transplant what the organ is worth.
Dec 01 18:26:01 <Hippy> Okay, we have the technology but don't use it for whatever reason. So the child is still greater than 50% chance of dying.
Dec 01 18:26:35 <Hippy> Indeed you could, and they are doing that in India, but people still object to the practice
Dec 01 18:26:41 <Tanada> kidney's sold by the Red Cross or similer organizations go for hundreds of thousands of dollar's in insurence payments, but the donors can get nothing BY LAW
Dec 01 18:27:07 <Hippy> Then that needs to change
Dec 01 18:27:17 <Tanada> in Western Democracies (phtui)
Dec 01 18:27:39 <Hippy> Now, is it worth kidnapping someone and carving them up for a cool million? It's been done for far less
Dec 01 18:27:57 <Tanada> as for your hypothetical Hippy, the ends never justify the means, it is evil to let the child starve OR steal its organs. Neither is a moral choice
Dec 01 18:28:18 <Tanada> Thats what Organlegging is all about after all
Dec 01 18:28:22 <Fred> But it's stupid to let the child starve and THEN steal it's organs.
Dec 01 18:28:25 <Hippy> But technology affects morals, as Larry Niven has pointed out
Dec 01 18:28:58 <Tanada> so if we have the technology to keep everyone fed and we let children starve are we a moral country?
Dec 01 18:29:08 <Hippy> I remember reading that in medieval France people were so poor they sold the skins of their dear departed for parchment
Dec 01 18:29:59 <Hippy> I would argue that it's not moral to let people starve if you can feed them. It might also be immoral to not house them if you can.
Dec 01 18:30:22 <Hippy> Or give them free Intenet access. Or a new car every four weeks. Where do you draw the line?
Dec 01 18:32:10 * Hippy points out he isn't being provocative just to get a rise out of Tanada, but to get some conversation happening
Dec 01 18:32:34 <Tanada> We agree on thos basic points
Dec 01 18:32:55 <Hippy> Now, xihr has been organlegging since the middle 70's. What are their thoughts?
Dec 01 18:33:10 <Tanada> I have been arguing with the we must have a human die off ASAP to save the environment crowd for months, it puts me rather in a testy mood
Dec 01 18:33:46 <Hippy> I don't mind testy. I'm not easily offended, so feel free to say whatever
Dec 01 18:34:07 <Hippy> And what kind of a crowd advocates a human die-off? Bloody hell
Dec 01 18:34:34 * fentex (~chatzilla@203.97.119.147) has joined #knownspace
Dec 01 18:34:42 <Hippy> Howdy, fentex
Dec 01 18:34:46 <fentex> hi
Dec 01 18:35:04 <fentex> hello
Dec 01 18:35:07 <NickE> hey
Dec 01 18:35:12 <Tanada> howdy
Dec 01 18:35:18 * Hippy has changed the topic to: Organlegging - good, bad, or a substitute for a Happy Meal?
Dec 01 18:35:30 <NickE> OK, caught up kinda
Dec 01 18:35:36 <Hippy> Just for people newly arriving
Dec 01 18:35:53 <NickE> I freaked the interviewer by telling him I was cahtting with Larry :-)
Dec 01 18:36:11 <Tanada> HA the radical far left environmentalist movement HATES human beings. They describe us as a species that are a virulent cancer destroying the environment
Dec 01 18:36:13 <Hippy> Well done, PseudoSpike
Dec 01 18:36:32 <Hippy> Damn FROMATES
Dec 01 18:36:35 <NickE> heh. Nice guy, big fan of the 'cast
Dec 01 18:36:46 <Hippy> Remind them that Gaia created us to preserve itself
Dec 01 18:37:17 <NickE> Should be a good commentary on ep 5 which I think is the last one due out before Christmas (ep 4 out today)
Dec 01 18:37:35 <Tanada> it doesn't matter Hippy, they don;t listen to ME lol, I am just a operson 'in denial of overshoot' who is 'seeking solutions in isolation'
Dec 01 18:37:36 <Hippy> Can you get the scripts of these eps?
Dec 01 18:38:00 <Hippy> Tanada: now there's a phrase to conjure with
Dec 01 18:38:27 <Tanada> yeah, I get sick of seeing both of them used repeatedly
Dec 01 18:39:12 <Tanada> I beleive we COULD support 18 Billion or more humans on this planet, but it would be very costly for the rest of the animal life on the planet.
Dec 01 18:39:45 <Hippy> If we all stood on Zanzibar it wouldn't be - a pretty miserable life, I grant you
Dec 01 18:40:07 <Tanada> A few hundred breeder reactors synthisizing carbohydrates and proties which we would feed to livestock would replace ranching
Dec 01 18:40:19 <Hippy> The main dangers to animal life are the crappy way we farm things. But we are getting better
Dec 01 18:40:56 <Tanada> I grew up on a very small farm and I see what Corporate Farming has done to agriculture, none of it good.
Dec 01 18:41:06 <Hippy> Yes. Too many people stuck in the 15th century with farming methods. I include the ones down my end of the world in that, too
Dec 01 18:42:06 <Tanada> if the synthetic food is tasty enough we would eat it directly and not need much farmland other than for luxury foods
Dec 01 18:42:17 <Hippy> The other solution to the starving millions is to build factories for them to work in. Once they have money to buy food, people will start to grow it
Dec 01 18:42:34 <Hippy> Now that's the American way, Tanada
Dec 01 18:42:42 <NickE> brb
Dec 01 18:43:24 <Hippy> Is there any food product in that once-proud Republic that doens't have soy beans in it? That's sadly where the modern farming methodology has taken us
Dec 01 18:44:00 <Hippy> We could always look at nanotechnology to make food (a machine that makes beef) but that's a bit pie in the sky at the moment
Dec 01 18:44:23 <Tanada> Sure, Corn Chips ;)
Dec 01 18:44:47 <Dan> Carniculture. Growing meat from cells in a nutrient bath.
Dec 01 18:45:01 <Dan> H. Beam Piper.
Dec 01 18:45:21 <Tanada> Same basic concept, and it used to play a starring role in a lot of future history fiction.
Dec 01 18:45:30 <Hippy> Has there been any work on that? Ah, I see. So that predates 'Chicken Little' from 'Flight of the Dragonfly'
Dec 01 18:45:38 <Tanada> Piper, Heinlein, dozens of others wrote about it
Dec 01 18:46:18 <Hippy> I don't know about fungus masquerading as beef - but then I might not have the option of both
Dec 01 18:46:20 <NickE> yep. Just listened to Methusalas Children. That mentions it
Dec 01 18:46:53 <Dan> Misses 'Arris, the chicken heart that grew to enormous size.
Dec 01 18:47:06 <Tanada> What I don;t get is this, we know how to keep marrow cells alive and productive so we could grow all the O- blood we would everr need and stop blood shortages.
Dec 01 18:47:10 <Tanada> But we don;t
Dec 01 18:47:19 <NickE> Practicalities would make it more expensive than truffles curently
Dec 01 18:47:24 <Hippy> I would say there's plenty of land to grow cattle in the orthodox way if we planted the crops for the cattle rather than just ranch them on open land
Dec 01 18:47:36 <Dan> Because the squemish among us protest too much.
Dec 01 18:47:58 <Hippy> Hang on - we can grow blood?
Dec 01 18:48:08 <Dan> For squemish, read "Religious fundimentalist fanatics
Dec 01 18:48:11 <Dan> "
Dec 01 18:48:44 <Tanada> Would you rather have cultured O- blood transfusion or risk AIDES from donor blood? Not to mention all the other blood borne pathogens you get exposed to from transfusion
Dec 01 18:49:16 <Hippy> The cultured blood. I didn't know they had that technology
Dec 01 18:49:48 <Tanada> Hippy marrow cells are easy to grow, you need a spongy mnaterial for them to clump in and a supply of nutrients and oxygen
Dec 01 18:50:08 <Hippy> Well, I'll be. . .I had no idea
Dec 01 18:50:42 <Hippy> Why the hell isn't the Red Cross just growing blood, then?
Dec 01 18:50:49 <Tanada> nobody does it for whatever reason, probably mostly cost related. If you transfuse someone with donor blood and they get illness or injury you are protected by the good samaritan laws
Dec 01 18:51:12 <Dan> It's part of the tech to grow skin cells for grafts. Been around for a decade or more, under development.
Dec 01 18:51:44 <Tanada> if you provide cultured blood or that artificial chemical substitute stuff they used in The ABYSS you are open to lawsuits
Dec 01 18:51:49 <Hippy> Well, with any luck they won't need blood donors anymore. Excellent news
Dec 01 18:52:32 <Hippy> Well, that can be changed at the whim of each State legislature, I presume
Dec 01 18:52:33 <Tanada> Thank the LAWYERS who protect us from beneficial technology
Dec 01 18:53:32 <Tanada> Hippy it would have to be federal or international, if people cross state or country lines to get a transfusion because your state allows it it becomes a federal/UN matter
Dec 01 18:54:19 <Hippy> Not if you become a resident of the 'transfusion' state
Dec 01 18:54:55 <Hippy> "I came to Kansas because of the flatness, but I stayed for the blood transfusion'
Dec 01 18:56:49 <Tanada> LOL, I can see THAT on a bumper sticker!
Dec 01 18:56:59 <Hippy> Anyway, in my once-proud Commonwealth it would be a State matter
Dec 01 18:57:56 <Hippy> So improvements in the medical technology may mean that organlegging doesn't become a problem. I like the idea of genetically modifying pigs to produce human organs. A good plan
Dec 01 19:01:07 <Tanada> I am alergic to swine so it would kill me
Dec 01 19:01:23 <Tanada> I prefer the Babboon hearts and livers option
Dec 01 19:02:39 <Hippy> Hmm. I suppose we could modify almost anything to give us the organs we need. Or for that matter, that they need. Imagine not having to destroy a racehorse because you can graft on a transplated leg or whatever
Dec 01 19:03:52 <Hippy> Then there's the controversial topic of 'elephantoplasty'
Dec 01 19:04:00 <Tanada> Actually horse meat isn't bad eating <eg>
Dec 01 19:04:23 <Hippy> You can't eat a fine animal like a racehorse!
Dec 01 19:04:42 <Dan> Would you rather make them into glue?
Dec 01 19:05:06 <Hippy> Put them out to stud (where possible)
Dec 01 19:07:00 <Tanada> What about the Geldings?
Dec 01 19:07:24 <Hippy> Well, we have transplant technology. . .
Dec 01 19:07:48 * Hippy pictures a market in organlegged gonads for horses
Dec 01 19:07:53 <Tanada> ROFLMAO!
Dec 01 19:08:38 <Hippy> A horse is happily walking along one day. suddenly two other horses leap out and grab it. Horseleggers aren't sadists, they don't have that much respect for the stuff
Dec 01 19:08:57 <Hippy> Gil the Foreleg Hamilton has to investigate
Dec 01 19:09:10 <NickE> <grin>
Dec 01 19:09:27 <Hippy> He's a three-legged former Kentucky Derby winner with a mysterious fourth leg
Dec 01 19:10:31 <Hippy> Hmm. Larry did he got stuck for future Gil the ARM stories. . .
Dec 01 19:11:10 <Dan> Somehow I don't think he'll be up for any Gill the Racehorse stories. LOL!
Dec 01 19:11:43 <Hippy> An owner needs the stud fees and he has a gelding that really looks the part of a good runner. But sadly said gelding is a bit short on performance as a stud, so he needs to get gonads transplaneted onto his horse
Dec 01 19:12:13 <Hippy> It's a Niven/Dick Francis crossover!
Dec 01 19:13:13 <Dan> But the genes would be those of the donor horse.
Dec 01 19:13:16 <Hippy> The horse they grab is related to Larry Greenberg from 'World of Ptavvs'. It's all in my new novel, "Pawnbroker of Worlds'
Dec 01 19:13:47 <Hippy> Yes, but the owners of the dam wouldn't know that. They think they're getting a good horse's genes
Dec 01 19:13:48 <Dan> Juggler of Words?
Dec 01 19:14:02 * growler (~growler@203.97.119.147) has joined #knownspace
Dec 01 19:14:02 <Dan> :)
Dec 01 19:14:11 <NickE> Hi Euan
Dec 01 19:14:13 <Dan> hiya growler.
Dec 01 19:14:21 <Hippy> Afternoon, Euan
Dec 01 19:14:22 <growler> hi
Dec 01 19:14:28 <Tanada> OK this is passing the bend on the Silly scales
Dec 01 19:14:37 <Tanada> hi growler
Dec 01 19:14:38 <NickE> fun tho
Dec 01 19:14:50 <Hippy> Yes, I think you're right there, Tanada
Dec 01 19:14:54 <Dan> Tananda, I think we bent the needle on my bullshit meter.
Dec 01 19:14:59 <Tanada> lol
Dec 01 19:15:23 <Tanada> so to ground ourselves in reallity and KS, we need to get to the asteroids to solve the Silver crisis
Dec 01 19:15:46 <Hippy> There's a silver crisis?
Dec 01 19:16:03 <Hippy> I thought the disappearance of camera film had solved that
Dec 01 19:16:15 <Tanada> Unlike most metals Silver has one purpose that causes it to be dispersed into the environment in nano concentrations which are unrecoverable
Dec 01 19:16:30 <Dan> Yeah, someone made a surfboard out of Earth total supply, and Hollywood bought it as a special effect for a cheesey movie.
Dec 01 19:16:32 <Tanada> yup, camera film is the culprit
Dec 01 19:17:05 <Hippy> Ah, I see. So we can't just. . .what are we using silver for now, then?
Dec 01 19:17:15 <Dan> Don't look at me, I went to digital photography several years ago.
Dec 01 19:17:31 <Tanada> camera film is going to stay popular in a lot of the world, digital camera's are expensive and require batteries far more than a film camera
Dec 01 19:17:59 <Dan> Aluminium. It's cheaper, just have to mix it with lead so that the coins weigh out right.
Dec 01 19:18:13 <Hippy> Hmm. Good point. So they are saying that there's no minalbe deposits left? That would explain the price for it, anyway
Dec 01 19:18:25 <Tanada> The three biggest silver consumers are still Film, Jewelry and electrical contacts
Dec 01 19:18:36 <Hippy> Yes, but it doesn't react to light very well, Dan
Dec 01 19:18:56 <Hippy> Doesn't the Moon have silver on it?
Dec 01 19:19:14 <Dan> So we start melting down all those Goth kids for their silver jewelry?
Dec 01 19:19:26 <Tanada> Actually there are good odds the Moon has alot of silver, if the mars sized impactor origen theory is correct
Dec 01 19:19:45 <Hippy> Only one way to find out :)
Dec 01 19:19:53 * fentex has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.79 [Firefox 2.0.0.11/2007112718])
Dec 01 19:19:56 <Tanada> I second the motion!
Dec 01 19:20:16 <Hippy> Okay. Read the Bible for hidden clues it is :)
Dec 01 19:20:27 <Tanada> Of course there is one OTHER source of silver but the enviro's won;t let us use it
Dec 01 19:20:35 * Hippy afk to get a Bible and also for morning ablutions
Dec 01 19:21:18 <Dan> Hmmmm, every cloud has a silver lining, so we start mining clouds... Won't the Greens go crazy over that one!
Dec 01 19:21:37 <Tanada> lol, not what I had in mind but it sounds like fun
Dec 01 19:23:38 <Hippy> Got a very J G Ballard feel to it
Dec 01 19:23:59 <Tanada> My second favorite source of silver, after moon mining
Dec 01 19:24:06 <Tanada> breeder reactors
Dec 01 19:24:19 <Hippy> How do they produce silver?
Dec 01 19:25:15 <Dan> Alchemy!
Dec 01 19:25:29 <Hippy> That's what I was thinking
Dec 01 19:26:01 <Tanada> Yes, its a hidden fact that spent LWR fuel or Breeder reactor fuel is .03% pure stable silver
Dec 01 19:26:02 <Dan> Nah, breeder reactors produce lots of stuff as the pile degrades.
Dec 01 19:26:05 <Hippy> They produce silver for sufficiently wide definitons of 'silver'?
Dec 01 19:26:30 <Dan> So we can make film that exposes itself?
Dec 01 19:26:35 <Hippy> Oh, okay. That doesn't sound like much
Dec 01 19:26:37 <Tanada> one of the 20 most common results of fission is Silver
Dec 01 19:26:55 <Tanada> well it isn't much, but it is recoverable LOL
Dec 01 19:27:20 <Hippy> It sounds like a win/win situation, but you're right about the windfarm freaks.
Dec 01 19:27:39 <Tanada> Palladium, Rhodium and Ruthenium are much more common in spent fuel, and they sell for a hell of a lot more than Silver too!
Dec 01 19:28:17 <Tanada> but we can't recover any of them in the USA, and the French just mix them into the glassified waste stream
Dec 01 19:28:34 <Tanada> its a crying shame I tell yah!
Dec 01 19:28:38 <Hippy> So that waste stream is a minable resource
Dec 01 19:29:09 <Hippy> It sounds bloody stupid. The waste can be recycled and palladium is worth heaps and is easily traded
Dec 01 19:29:12 <Dan> LOL! So is manure, but lots of folks don't like to think about it.
Dec 01 19:29:50 <Tanada> One metric ton of
Dec 01 19:30:09 <Dan> The obvious counterargument to present to the Greens is "but it's *recycling!*"
Dec 01 19:30:11 <Tanada> spent fuel, at a burn up of 33 GWd/t (gigawatt
Dec 01 19:30:31 <Tanada> days per metric ton) contains > 1 kg palladium
Dec 01 19:30:46 <Tanada> Pd), > 400 g rhodium (Rh) and > 2 kg ruthenium
Dec 01 19:30:55 <Hippy> Jesus! One palladium (fine) ounce is worth $US349
Dec 01 19:31:01 <Tanada> (Ru) (1). Indeed, by 2030 spent nuclear fuel could
Dec 01 19:31:06 <Hippy> That's about $0.92 Canadian
Dec 01 19:31:15 <Tanada> supply up to 1000 t Pd and 340 t Rh. This would
Dec 01 19:31:32 <Tanada> be a considerable addition to the yield from natural
Dec 01 19:31:48 <Tanada> natural
Dec 01 19:31:54 <Tanada> sources
Dec 01 19:32:22 <Dan> As I said:
Dec 01 19:32:24 <Dan> The obvious counterargument to present to the Greens is "but it's *recycling!*"
Dec 01 19:32:36 <Hippy> $349 per tonne is certainly a minable concentration
Dec 01 19:32:44 <Tanada> Ohh, buts its slightly radioactive and scarry!
Dec 01 19:33:05 <Dan> So's your iPod.
Dec 01 19:33:32 <Tanada> That's from http://www.platinummetalsreview.com/pdf/79-90-pmr-apr05.pdf BTW
Dec 01 19:34:27 <NickE> Well, I'm not contributing much aand its gone half past midnight here, so I'll wish you all a good one, nice to see a good liveley chat and annoyed to have had to cut out while Larry was still around, but thats the cost of (other) fandom :-)
Dec 01 19:35:02 <Tanada> C'Ya NickE
Dec 01 19:35:14 <Hippy> 'Bye Nick
Dec 01 19:35:19 <Dan> Night, Nick.
Dec 01 19:35:34 <Tanada> Hippy $349 per OUNCE (troy)
Dec 01 19:35:40 <NickE> CAtch you next...year! And on teh list of course (sooooo behind right now)
Dec 01 19:35:49 <Hippy> Yep, Tanada
Dec 01 19:35:51 <Tanada> 1 kg is
Dec 01 19:35:51 <NickE> night
Dec 01 19:35:55 * NickE has quit ()
Dec 01 19:36:12 <Hippy> But you have to have a ton of fuel to get that ounce, that's what I meant
Dec 01 19:36:19 <Hippy> Those ounces, I mean
Dec 01 19:36:23 <Tanada> 26.43 Troay ounces
Dec 01 19:37:02 <Tanada> $9224.xx per ton.
Dec 01 19:37:24 <Tanada> Yucca mountain is designed to hold 70,000 tons of spent fuel
Dec 01 19:37:32 <Hippy> Oh. Well in that case you have $9224.07 a ton (yield per ton) which is very, very economical indeed
Dec 01 19:37:44 <Tanada> the USA currently holds somewhere around 58,000 tons of spent fuel
Dec 01 19:38:03 <Hippy> How do you extract the palladium, ruthenium etc
Dec 01 19:38:05 <Hippy> ?
Dec 01 19:38:06 <Tanada> But we can'tr recycle it
Dec 01 19:38:30 <Tanada> All three platinum group metals are flouride extractible
Dec 01 19:38:52 <Hippy> Good. Some proper use of fluoride for a change, rather than polluting my cup of tea
Dec 01 19:39:09 <Tanada> you dissolve the waste after you extract the higher actinides (Uranium, Neptunium Plutonium ect ect)
Dec 01 19:39:20 <Tanada> in hydroflouric acid
Dec 01 19:39:25 <Hippy> You should flog the spent fuel off to Mexico. That's what Mexico is for
Dec 01 19:39:34 <Tanada> then bubble flourine gas through it
Dec 01 19:40:17 <Tanada> Why give Mexico all that valuable metal, they steal enough jobs already!
Dec 01 19:40:21 <Hippy> That seems extremely simple. I wonder if we could take the spent fuel off you, ship it over here and do it ourselves? Hmm. Good value added work, that
Dec 01 19:41:05 <Hippy> No, no, no. You buy the metal back off them. All you're doing is shipping the pollution over the border
Dec 01 19:41:08 <Tanada> IT IS !!!!!!! That's why I got so excited about it two years ago, but nobody outside of Japan is interested, and their interest seems to have waned.
Dec 01 19:42:35 <Tanada> Its crazy, we will mine gold ore down to something like $.20 per ton, but we won't mine reactor waste with a cash value of $9000.00 from ONE metal and other metals as byproducts
Dec 01 19:42:46 <Tanada> How does this make any friggin sense?
Dec 01 19:43:31 <Hippy> It doesn't. But politics rarely does
Dec 01 19:45:24 <Tanada> sigh
Dec 01 19:45:42 <Tanada> what happenned to the profit motive fer crying all night?
Dec 01 19:46:55 <Hippy> Swamped in a sea of environmental guilt, I suppose
Dec 01 19:47:12 <Hippy> And killed off by tax concessions for mining but not for recycling
Dec 01 19:47:38 * Hippy was just reading about Fuch's Dystrophy, which Larry Niven has. I empathise with him
Dec 01 19:49:19 <Hippy> Just been reading. Damn verbs. . .
Dec 01 19:49:36 <Tanada> life sucks and then you die, but if you did it right your kids/relatives will carry on PAK style
Dec 01 19:49:40 <Dan> *I* understood.
Dec 01 19:49:55 <Hippy> Yeah, but you're from Georgia :)
Dec 01 19:50:08 <Tanada> lol I understood as well
Dec 01 19:50:22 <Dan> And I'm dyslexic, so I'm used to words and concepts being in a blender.
Dec 01 19:50:31 <Hippy> Well, we now that verbs redundant
Dec 01 19:50:32 <Tanada> and my granny was a one room schoolhouse teacher in the early 20th century
Dec 01 19:50:58 <Tanada> yes verb ARE or CAN BE redundant lol
Dec 01 19:51:19 <Hippy> Yep, and we PROVED it
Dec 01 19:52:41 <Dan> Lots of meaning comes through from the context it is presented within.
Dec 01 19:53:36 <Hippy> I was always taught that as a child. You can slip up though. I'd been using 'trepidation' as a synonym for 'erection' for many years before I was picked up on it
Dec 01 19:53:51 <Hippy> In a police line up due to a certain trepidation
Dec 01 19:53:54 <Tanada> So who wants to fund my waste recycling company?
Dec 01 19:54:12 <Hippy> Put me down for $100 worth of shares
Dec 01 19:54:17 <Dan> Got a permit for that radioactive garbage?
Dec 01 19:54:41 <Tanada> Hippy said I can send that part to Mexico with his blessings
Dec 01 19:55:18 <Hippy> Judging by their beer they probably cook with the stuff
Dec 01 19:55:56 <Hippy> Hmm. Are both Freds the same Fred?
Dec 01 19:56:12 <Tanada> No clue they were here before I was
Dec 01 19:56:42 <Hippy> And what has happened to xihr. They were chatting away 0.000000000019 to the dozen a while back and have gone all silent again
Dec 01 19:57:49 <Tanada> Any idea what the difference in cratering is from a nuke vs a meteorite of the same energy?
Dec 01 19:58:28 <Hippy> Þ - um, I would've thought only the radioactivity
Dec 01 19:59:18 <Tanada> Well I was wondering because a nuke releases the energy at a specific point, whereas the meteroite is trying to burrow deeper as it is being vaporized...
Dec 01 19:59:28 <Tanada> but does that make any difference?
Dec 01 19:59:55 <Hippy> I would say, yes, since the nuke is usually an airburst going in all directions, as you said
Dec 01 20:00:06 <Tanada> They were showing the meteorite craters found by the Levy team all over the Earth
Dec 01 20:00:17 <Hippy> The meteorite produces hot plasma moving in a given direction, carried over from the impact
Dec 01 20:00:25 <Tanada> on the Science channel or discovery
Dec 01 20:00:35 <Hippy> Ah, yes. 'Lucifer's Hammer' in real life
Dec 01 20:00:52 * Alex (~Alex@86.151.234.5) has joined #knownspace
Dec 01 20:01:03 <Tanada> hard to realize the Earth has so darn many of the things, but we never studied them in geography class way back when
Dec 01 20:01:09 <Hippy> Howdy, Alex
Dec 01 20:01:16 <Tanada> hi alex
Dec 01 20:01:44 <Alex> Just realised it's Saturday chat day
Dec 01 20:01:58 <Hippy> You missed Larry. He was on before
Dec 01 20:02:16 <Alex> Tanj!
Dec 01 20:02:22 <Hippy> And Ed Lerner was on
Dec 01 20:02:30 <Tanada> imagine how the world would have reacted to a major impactor during say the Korean War, or say Berlin during the airlift
Dec 01 20:02:37 <Alex> Anything intersting?
Dec 01 20:02:39 <Hippy> And we have wrung everything we could out of transplanting horse gonads
Dec 01 20:03:02 <Dan> I'd say we milked that one dry, yes.
Dec 01 20:03:10 <Hippy> LOL!
Dec 01 20:03:14 <Tanada> ewww I knew someone would go there
Dec 01 20:03:14 <Dan> :)
Dec 01 20:03:40 <Tanada> mountain oysters are ment to be sold to wierdo's who eat them
Dec 01 20:03:44 <Tanada> not milked
Dec 01 20:03:54 <Tanada> :)
Dec 01 20:04:17 <Hippy> Well, that was one possible scenario for spasm war. A meteorite hits the Earth, people think it's a nuclear explosion and everything goes 'foom'
Dec 01 20:04:22 <Alex> I wonder if Jerry P could be persuaded to drop in here when Inferno2 is out?
Dec 01 20:04:41 <Hippy> I was hoping you were his son :)
Dec 01 20:05:02 <Hippy> In any case, that's not until next September. . .
Dec 01 20:05:25 <Alex> 'Fraid not, just a fan
Dec 01 20:05:37 <Tanada> A lot depends on the date of the impactor Hippy, if it happenned now we would wait before shooting
Dec 01 20:06:06 <Tanada> If it was 1951-63 we would have shot first and asked questions later
Dec 01 20:06:08 <Hippy> Oh, indeed. The scenario was based on the now debunked idea that the systems were automatic
Dec 01 20:06:18 <Alex> I didn't realise publishing was so slow - they just turned in final draft
Dec 01 20:06:33 <Hippy> september 2008 is close???
Dec 01 20:06:42 <Tanada> publishers make tortises look speedy
Dec 01 20:06:54 <Hippy> You're a patient man, Alex - a patient person, I should say
Dec 01 20:07:10 <Tanada> they are aiming for Christmas 08 I betcha
Dec 01 20:07:16 <Hippy> 'Paperback distribution is seriously broken' to quote Jerry Pournelle
Dec 01 20:07:49 <Hippy> Probably. There's no excuse for such a long lead time on books nowadays. Not if Lulu can do print on demand
Dec 01 20:08:07 <Tanada> Imagine Stalin still in Moscow so say 1952, and a Tunguska style impactor hits Warsaw
Dec 01 20:08:24 <Hippy> Yep. Off they'd go
Dec 01 20:08:36 <Alex> BTW I'm veiewing this on my shiny new 40" sony HDTV - very nice
Dec 01 20:09:03 <Hippy> So human history really has been a series of hairs-breadth escapes, just like Nessus said it was
Dec 01 20:09:30 <Hippy> 40 inches? What phenomenal price was that?
Dec 01 20:10:29 <Alex> ~£1200
Dec 01 20:10:57 <Hippy> That's not that bad. I was expecting a lot more than that. Hmmm. . .
Dec 01 20:11:31 <Tanada> YEOWCH that would really hurt, I don;t pay that much for my monthly mortgage payment! Probably half that in terms of dollars!
Dec 01 20:11:57 * Hippy is moving to America RIGHT NOW!
Dec 01 20:12:04 <Dan> I didn't pay that for my last three cars, combined.
Dec 01 20:12:24 <Hippy> Truly the land of opportunity. . .
Dec 01 20:13:14 * Hippy has just heard that Evel Knievel has died, aged 69
Dec 01 20:13:29 <Tanada> LOL, my mortgage is roughly Euro's 650.00 per month
Dec 01 20:15:12 <Hippy> A quick check of my Vista gadget thing confirms that you're slightly worse off than me, by about $US20 a month
Dec 01 20:15:25 <Hippy> Of course, I'm renting, not mortgaging
Dec 01 20:16:04 <Dan> Hmmm, a £ is worhs about 1.6 $ this week...
Dec 01 20:16:11 <Hippy> I should change the topic to '#knownspace: Your Mortgage Comparison Channel'
Dec 01 20:16:34 <Tanada> I am getting a three bedroom house in the old part of town
Dec 01 20:16:56 <Tanada> which might someday be worth more than it was when I bought it SIGH
Dec 01 20:17:04 <Hippy> I'm getting a three bedroom place up the country
Dec 01 20:17:24 <Hippy> Old part of which town?
Dec 01 20:17:52 <Dan> ...So I'm paying roughly £270 a month for a 1200sq.ft. brick house and 1.2 acres of land.
Dec 01 20:17:54 <Tanada> Monroe MI, I live about 2 miles from a war of 1812 battlefield
Dec 01 20:18:28 <Hippy> Oh, that sounds nice. I don't know the US well, but I do know that Maryland beats Nevada
Dec 01 20:18:39 <Tanada> OK Dan now i have to burn you in effigy!
Dec 01 20:19:07 <Tanada> LOL MICHIGAN not MARYLAND
Dec 01 20:19:27 <Hippy> Oops. Thought that was 'L'
Dec 01 20:19:33 <Dan> Well, I do live about 12 kilometers from the nearest town, and twice that from the nearest city.
Dec 01 20:19:49 <Hippy> And 45 mins walk from the shops. Egad
Dec 01 20:20:01 * Hippy thinks he won't jump the Pacific just yet
Dec 01 20:20:21 <Dan> 45 minutes walt from a gas station with a little convenience storr attached.
Dec 01 20:20:55 <Hippy> And your own well for water. . .hmm. Just call me a suburban boy. .
Dec 01 20:21:42 <Dan> The water here as more than a little iron in it, but look on the bright side - I'm saving a fortune on Geritol! :)
Dec 01 20:21:43 <Tanada> I can walk 4 blocks one way, or cross over a block and walk 4 blocks east to go to a conveinince store or a small grocer
Dec 01 20:22:43 <Hippy> I live about 1000 yds from a grocer but that's as the crow flies. If the crow had to walk up hill and down dale it would be about 15 million yards
Dec 01 20:22:43 <Tanada> or I can go 5 blocks due north to the river, then float downstream a mile or so to the battlefield
Dec 01 20:22:57 <Dan> Oh, I've lived in the nearby city, paying roughly as much in rent as I am now on my mortgage.
Dec 01 20:23:17 <Hippy> We should get a description from Euan, as well.
Dec 01 20:23:32 <Hippy> Just to see everyone's lifestyles. . .
Dec 01 20:24:12 <Tanada> Well Gents (and any ladies present) my wife just called, she is not enjoying her drive home in an ice storm so I must go and make ready for her arrival
Dec 01 20:24:12 <Dan> On the other hand, I can sit in my back yard, drink a beer, and watch deer walk past me about 5 meters away.
Dec 01 20:24:31 <Dan> Bye Tananda.
Dec 01 20:24:36 <Hippy> 'Bye Tanada
Dec 01 20:24:43 <Tanada> C'Ya all next month, I hope
Dec 01 20:24:54 <Hippy> Dan, you have the Clifford D Simak lifestyle down pat
Dec 01 20:25:06 * Tanada has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)
Dec 01 20:25:20 <Hippy> Next year. Has it been that long?
Dec 01 20:25:41 <Dan> LOL! I love being out here in the sticks, but 20 munutes driving time puts me in the heart of dwntown Athens.
Dec 01 20:28:06 <Dan> Clifford D. Simak? Unfair comparison, I don't put *nearly* as much sex in my stories as he did his.
Dec 01 20:28:11 <Dan> :)
Dec 01 20:28:26 <Hippy> What?!
Dec 01 20:28:44 <growler> description of what?
Dec 01 20:28:45 <Hippy> I have clearly been reading the wrong stories or poorly defining 'sex'
Dec 01 20:28:54 <Hippy> Where you live, Euan
Dec 01 20:29:08 <growler> Christchurch New Zealand, the Garden City.
Dec 01 20:29:40 <Hippy> We were just comparing mortgages because they turn up so rarely in Niven stories
Dec 01 20:30:03 <Hippy> Not one mention of a mortgage in 44 years of writing
Dec 01 20:30:04 <growler> On the Pacfic Coast we've got 100 kilometers of beach, a long extinct volcanic penninsula with hills up to 5,5000 feet and the caldera is our port (accessed by tunel)
Dec 01 20:30:33 <growler> Famous for being more Britsih than britain (wihch isn't really true) we have a river Avon that people punt on
Dec 01 20:31:05 <growler> The southern alps (great for skiing and tramping) are a hundred clicks to the west
Dec 01 20:31:32 <growler> The best city in the world for amateur golfers - we've some 50 courses within an hours drive that cost about $10 to play on
Dec 01 20:31:49 <Hippy> Yes, but what about your actual house? I imagined you to be living on a farm because I assume all New Zealanders live on a farm
Dec 01 20:32:08 <growler> The most expsnive proerties are iethero n the hills opverlooking the city or in the older heavily gardened central suburbs
Dec 01 20:32:48 <Hippy> Much the same in Melbourne
Dec 01 20:33:27 <Hippy> Although the gardens are disappearing due to the drought and to a greater the passion to cram as many flats as possible per square foot
Dec 01 20:33:37 <growler> My house is in the suburb of Riccarton, ten minutes walk from the biggest mall in this part of the world, and ten minutes walk from catnerbury university. Five minutes in the other direction to a bakery, vegetable and some other stores.
Dec 01 20:33:42 <growler> I'm surrounded by student housing
Dec 01 20:34:11 <Hippy> It sounds very convenient, though
Dec 01 20:34:12 <growler> But not quite so much as I used to be - with the rise in housing costs families are starting to buy what was student accommodation
Dec 01 20:34:42 <Alex> OK time to go - seeya
Dec 01 20:34:47 * Alex has quit ()
Dec 01 20:34:49 <Hippy> Is there any country in the world where housing costs aren't going up?
Dec 01 20:34:57 <growler> I can get anywhere in the city quickly from here- I have very convenient access to main thoroughfares, but that's generally true of anyhwerei n ChCh. Our greatest claim to fame is probably infrastructure that just works.
Dec 01 20:35:16 <growler> Cleanest water in the world too.
Dec 01 20:35:38 <Hippy> That would make a change from here
Dec 01 20:36:24 <growler> My house is a three bedroom ex-statehouse on 900 square meters of property. Current valuation ~ USD$ 280, 000
Dec 01 20:37:03 <growler> Ex-statehouse means it was built as part of a governmnet project in the thirites to mass produce affordable housing. Very well built brick. Extremely low maintenance.
Dec 01 20:37:31 <growler> Only downside is the bedrooms are a bit small
Dec 01 20:37:48 <growler> My garage could accommodate about four cars if it wasn[t full of junk
Dec 01 20:38:07 <growler> Hang on, you can get a look on google maps...
Dec 01 20:38:24 <growler> You can see my hammock on this I think...
Dec 01 20:39:01 <Hippy> Interesting. I'm moving to a 1940's brick place in a few weeks and I noticed that the bedrooms are quite large by modern standards. Have NZ bedrooms got larger over the years?
Dec 01 20:42:03 <growler> I don't tihnk so, except in very modern homes which have a lot more luxury (en-suites, walk in closets etc)
Dec 01 20:42:49 <Hippy> Yeah, and no backyards at all
Dec 01 20:43:15 <growler> I think it's more a refelction of the bulders wealth - my home was built as part of a prject ot build affordable homes so it is in general about a meter smaller in both dimensions than would have been nice
Dec 01 20:43:49 <growler> This...
Dec 01 20:43:50 <growler> http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&time=&date=&ttype=&q=Christchurch,+Canterbury,+New+Zealand&ie=UTF8&lr=lang_en&cd=1&geocode=0,-43.531637,172.636645&ll=-43.536041,172.588255&spn=0.003535,0.008454&t=h&z=18&iwloc=addr&om=1
Dec 01 20:43:59 <growler> ...is google maps picture of my place
Dec 01 20:44:42 <Hippy> A nice looking city, alright
Dec 01 20:45:34 <Hippy> And here's my new one: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=&q=403+Drummond+St+N,+Lake+Wendouree+AU&sll=-43.536043,172.588257&sspn=0.002777,0.004989&ie=UTF8&t=h&z=16&iwloc=addr&om=1
Dec 01 20:45:34 <growler> In the center of the screen is a bunch of trees adjacent to a horizontal street. They're my trees, my house is thec square roofed one. The silver bit above andl eft of it is my garage.
Dec 01 20:47:11 <growler> My neighbourhood is actually one of the less gardened green parts of the city
Dec 01 20:47:11 <Hippy> Very nice. Mine is the tiled roof two houses North of Duncan St if you have the hybrid view on
Dec 01 20:48:17 <growler> looks a little dusty, feeling the drought?
Dec 01 20:48:33 <Hippy> Yes, sadly
Dec 01 20:48:55 <Hippy> And up there they're relatively well of for water (it's NW of Melbourne)
Dec 01 20:49:22 <Dan> I've looked at my place on Google maps... All I can see of it is about 12 pixels in a tiny rectangle that must be my roof. And that's with the closest view Google offered.
Dec 01 20:49:53 <Hippy> Google Earth is a bit better for close views
Dec 01 20:50:10 <growler> you're nice and close for mucking about on boats
Dec 01 20:50:38 <Hippy> Yep! But nearly a mile from the pub :(
Dec 01 20:54:45 <Hippy> Looks like Dan, you and I are the only active people here. I mean, you know, looking at the screen
Dec 01 20:54:52 <growler> gotta go help my parents get back online, ta ta
Dec 01 20:54:55 * growler has quit ()
Dec 01 20:55:15 <Hippy> Hmm. That was well-timed :)
Dec 01 20:55:42 <Hippy> Yes, nearly 1:00PM here, too Perhaps it's time to head off
Dec 01 20:55:43 <Dan> LOL!
Dec 01 20:55:57 <Dan> Have a great afternoon, Hippy.
Dec 01 20:56:13 <Hippy> Have a great evening, Dan and I hope the arm gets better
Dec 01 20:56:25 <Dan> My wife wants me to start paying attention to her instead of this screen. LOL!
Dec 01 20:56:28 <Hippy> And a good evening to everyone else
Dec 01 20:56:44 <Hippy> Wives are so. . .I suppose they have their uses :)
Dec 01 20:56:59 <Hippy> My regards to your lady wife, too
Dec 01 20:57:04 <Dan> Indeed, I intend to put mine to it later on tonight.
Dec 01 20:57:23 <Hippy> Ah. .. well, yes, TMI and all that
Dec 01 20:57:25 <Dan> Her intentions may be less honorable, though.
Dec 01 20:57:39 <Hippy> LOL!
Dec 01 20:57:56 <Hippy> Tell her you're carrying an injury
Dec 01 20:58:05 <Dan> I may have to hang some pictures or help her move some furneture or omething.
Dec 01 20:58:23 <Hippy> Nice of her to spare you the heavy stuff
Dec 01 20:58:50 <Dan> Oh, I've still got *one* good arm, I can lift one end of the couch.
Dec 01 20:59:21 <Hippy> No rest at all :(
Dec 01 20:59:39 <Hippy> Anyway, time to adjourn and check the emails
Dec 01 20:59:51 <Hippy> Good night to everyone for whom it is night
Dec 01 21:00:02 <Hippy> Which I think covers everybody
Dec 01 21:00:08 * Hippy has quit ()
Dec 01 21:00:11 <Dan> Oh, she run out of steam in an hour or so and go to bed. I'll be up half the night watching TV or some movies in my computer.
Dec 01 21:00:47 <Dan> I swear I made fewer typos when I still had one arm in that sling.
Dec 01 21:08:26 <Dan> Goodnight and have a great month!
Dec 01 21:08:32 * Dan has quit ()
Dec 01 22:40:40 * chief_strike_anywhere has quit (Connection reset by peer)
Dec 01 23:12:52 <SeanS> fred, i guess the java update fixed the applet problem
Dec 02 00:43:42 <Fred> it actually gave me the java logo after like an hour of trying
Dec 02 00:45:09 <Fred> it's still trying to log on