[22:50] <Agincourtdb> he's really scary in the Professional

[22:51] <Dan> What accent did he use in Lost In Space?

[22:51] <Agincourtdb> http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/imagegallery/image_feature_792.html

[22:51] <Bill> What Agin started to say ...

[22:52] <Bill> LIS? He's too young for that ! ... oh, wait, they DID make a movie about that, didn't they? Was he in it?

[22:53] * SeanAway is now known as SeanS

[22:54] <Dan> Yeah, he played Dr. Smith in the movie.

[22:54] <Dan> Hiya Sean!

[22:54] <SeanS> hi dan

[22:54] <SeanS> and everyone else ;)

[22:58] <Bill> Dr Smith? "Oh The Pain" Dr. Smith? He (the original actor, I forget his name at the moment) did his last role for "A Bug's Life" ... Jonothan Harris, he was the Mantis. Hi, Sean!

[22:59] <Dan> Yeah, Jonathan Harris. I finally got a complete set of the original series. Wonderful stuff.

[22:59] <Bill> Tip a hat and a drink toward Phoenix ... may Frank rise yet from the ashes!

[23:00] <Lensman> Gary Oldman played Dr. Smith in the movie. Good role, bad movie.

[23:01] <Bill> In the original pilot, Smith was an enemy agent and a cold blooded killer ... I could see this in Oldman, but I never bought it in the Irwin Allen schlock. Did they take advantage of that?

[23:01] <Lensman> Oh, you said that.

[23:01] <Dan> At least they had the class to get Bob Mays to do the voice of the Robot again.

[23:02] <SeanS> i tipped a number of beers in the phoenix direction today

[23:03] <Lensman> Oldman was a good, ruthless villain. The movie was okay for the first 1/3 or so, then wandered off into some vague senseless time loop thing that not only didn't make sense, it lacked any suspense.

[23:03] <Bill> We've lost another classic, my friends, if we choose to. I haven't lost Kelly yet, either ... they live as long as we tell their tales.

[23:03] <Lensman> I admit part of my problem was William Hurt. I've never been able to appreciate his acting, and as the "family man" father he just wasn't convincing at all.

[23:04] <Agincourtdb> I liked him in Dune

[23:05] <SeanS> answering an email in the chat room, frank called himself felix in here infrequently but he did from time to time. that was his nick on another list

[23:05] <Lensman> I hear the first few episodes of the TV series were done straight and Dr. Smith was actually a real villain. I always wondered why they didn't just space him and be done with it. (Real answer: no story)

[23:05] <Bill> My buddy "RedEye Knight" complains about William Hurt, but he thinks he's talking about Russel Crowe ..

[23:05] <Agincourtdb> lol

[23:05] <Lensman> I have no doubt William Hurt is a good actor. He just rubs me the wrong way.

[23:06] <Agincourtdb> who was the girl in that?

[23:06] <Dan> The first attempt at the series didn't *have* Dr. Smith at all, and was done straight. It was really good.

[23:06] <Lensman> The teen girl in the movie?

[23:06] <Agincourtdb> heather graham

[23:07] <SeanS> i thought dr smith was a stowaway who got stuck on the ship and didnt want to be there.. in the series that is

[23:07] <Bill> I watched "Master And Commander" again today, I *know* REK has them mixed up. Nobody could have blown a role in "Altered States", but I think William Hurt managed.

[23:07] <Lensman> Lacy Chabert

[23:07] <Lensman> Heather Graham was "mommy"

[23:08] <Lensman> per IMDb.com

[23:08] <Agincourtdb> yeah

[23:08] <Fred> _02_nope

[23:08] <Lensman> Oh, you think "Altered States" would have worked with someone else in the lead? I thought that was just my personal reacion to Hurt.

[23:08] <Dan> That's right, Sean. But he wasn't written into the series until the 2nd pilot - the one that actually sold. At first he was a real vilian, but soon became comic relief.

[23:08] <Fred> _02_Heather Graham was the older sister, Judy

[23:09] <Fred> _02_the former Mrs. Tom Cruise was Maureen, the mommy

[23:09] <SeanS> he was the villian who got stuck in the first one that i saw

[23:09] <Lensman> Okay. Heather had a "Doctor" in front of her character's title, I thought she was mommy.

[23:09] <Bill> Ooooh, Heather Graham as Judy? That would be dishy ...

[23:09] <Fred> _02_yes

[23:10] <SeanS> stole the whole show from the lead actor

[23:10] <Bill> Was she in it, then?

[23:10] <Agincourtdb> it doesn't matter... I was just trying to set up a 'wish she would rub me the wrong way' joke

[23:10] <Dan> OK folks, I'm officially on vacation for the next 21 days... I'm about to go to bed and snuggle my wife until late tomorrow morning.

[23:10] <Agincourtdb> give her a flourish for us

[23:10] <Lensman> Night Dan.

[23:11] <SeanS> sounds like fun for you, dan ;)

[23:11] <Fred> _02_yes, all 3 women are in it. Mimi Rogers, Heather, and Lacey

[23:11] <Dan> Sean, see you at the party next week. Come as early as you like. Hugs to Julie.

[23:11] <Bill> Heather Graham could rub me ANY WAY SHE WANTS TO ..... I still ain't getting married again!

[23:11] <Fred> _02_play respectively the Mom and her two daughters

[23:11] <SeanS> i cant make it dan

[23:11] <SeanS> didnt realize it was mommy day weekend

[23:11] <Bill> Night, Dan!

[23:12] <Dan> And hugs to everyone here, too. Goodnight

[23:12] <Fred> _02_21 day vacation??

[23:12] <Fred> _02_damn

[23:12] <Bill> Thanks for the cover!

[23:12] <Dan> OK sean, maybe next time.

[23:12] <Fred> _02_enjoy!

[23:12] <Dan> Nighters!

[23:12] <SeanS> i will call you, dan

[23:12] * Dan has quit IRC

[23:13] <Lensman> So, Bill, what are some of your fave animated short subjects?

[23:13] <InvisibleDragon> Hello, anyone still here?

[23:13] <SeanS> hi carol

[23:13] <Agincourtdb> yup

[23:13] <Fred> _02_quit dragon my heart around

[23:13] <InvisibleDragon> LOL

[23:14] <Lensman> Yes we're here Carol

[23:14] <Agincourtdb> she was

[23:14] <Agincourtdb> an american giiirl

[23:14] * InvisibleDragon is now known as FlyingDragon

[23:14] <Bill> Favorites, huh? Hi Carol! Have I told you lately that I love you?

[23:14] <Fred> _02_Lensman, in the TV show, Smith is a ruthless villain for the first 5 eps

[23:14] <Fred> _02_the reason they don't space him is 'cause they almost immediately crash

[23:14] <SeanS> thats what i was remembering, fred

[23:14] <Lensman> Okay. I haven't seen any of those.

[23:14] <Fred> _02_by the time they find out he's evil, they're stuck on Preplanus

[23:14] <FlyingDragon> No, Bill, you have not told me lately that you love me. You may now do so!

[23:15] <Fred> _02_and by the time they get back into space again, it's a new season, and the show had turned into a comedy

[23:15] <Agincourtdb> has he told you there's no one above you

[23:15] <Agincourtdb> you fill his heart with gladness

[23:15] <Agincourtdb> take away all his sadness

[23:15] <Lensman> ...well except Master Ho...

[23:15] <Agincourtdb> ease is trouble, thats what you do

[23:15] <FlyingDragon> Agincourt, you quoting a song?????

[23:15] <Agincourtdb> yup

[23:16] <Agincourtdb> Van Morrison

[23:16] <FlyingDragon> I beleive I've heard of him before.

[23:16] <Agincourtdb> lol

[23:16] <Agincourtdb> yeah

[23:16] <Fred> _02_it's a wonderful night for a moondance

[23:16] <Agincourtdb> oh, oh.

[23:16] <Agincourtdb> domino

[23:16] <FlyingDragon> Wonderful night to sleep on my new mattress.

[23:17] <Agincourtdb> god I need a new mattress

[23:17] <Fred> _02_I hope the store didn't fleece you

[23:17] <SeanS> temperpedic rules

[23:17] <Bill> "Bambi VS Godzilla." "The Critic." "2001: A Special Odyssey" (sorry, you have to love your own work or what's the use.)

[23:17] <FlyingDragon> My martial arts masters gave me their old mattress and bought a sleep number. She likes it soft, he likes it hard. This mattress is... firm.

[23:17] <Agincourtdb> bambi vs godzilla is a work of brilliance

[23:17] <Lensman> Oh yah "Bambi vs. Godzilla". A true classic!

[23:17] <Bill> "SCREAMING EVIL DEATH!"

[23:17] <FlyingDragon> But, still, it is a used mattresss.

[23:17] <Fred> _02_yeah, I want a sleep number

[23:18] * Agincourtdb gives Fred a sleep number: thirty two.

[23:18] <FlyingDragon> I think I'd love a soft setting. Then I'm make it hard to get up!!!!

[23:18] <Fred> _02_lol

[23:18] <Fred> _02_I sleep better on my nice soft couch than I do the rock hard bed I'm stuck on at Moms

[23:18] <Agincourtdb> I like a hard mattress and lots of pillows

[23:18] <Fred> _02_but I suspect it would vary night to night

[23:18] <Lensman> I've got "Screaming Evil Death" on the MTV "Wet Shorts" DVD. Not *quite* my cup of tea, but I can see the amusement value.

[23:20] <Bill> "I went to my local corner grocery for a while but quit when I found out they were pandering to the lesbian market ... they had a sign in the window that said 'Milk -- $2.59, Gal Homo!' -- I moved on"

[23:20] <Fred> _02_moooooooooooooved on

[23:20] <Agincourtdb> lol

[23:21] <Agincourtdb> dude, you knew where the lesbians shop and you didn't camp out with a long lens camera???

[23:21] <Agincourtdb> ;-)

[23:21] <Agincourtdb> ladies and gentlemen, my fratboy impression

[23:21] <Fred> _02_long lensman camera

[23:21] <Lensman> A lady friend of mine dragged me to a silent film fest. Most aren't to my taste, but there was a WONDERFUL short called "The Cameraman's Revenge", early (1914?) stop-motion animation, using beetle parts! The Russian animator tried using live bugs but they didn't cooperate, so he built his own "puppets" with hard bug parts. The film is a bedroom farce. I liked it enough to buy a collection of the animator's works on DVD, it's called "The Cameraman's

[23:22] <Bill> Sorry, trying to get divorced from one. Not funny from my (agin)court

[23:23] <FlyingDragon> Sounds real funny.

[23:24] <Lensman> Lensman camera, hmmm. I was at an e-bay chat site and they thought I was a photographer... it took me awhile to realize it was because of my handle! Mundanes are so alien... ;-)

[23:24] <Agincourtdb> lol

[23:25] <Bill> There were a couple of INCREDIBLY funny not-quite-animated shorts based around a character named "Blaze Glory" that if you haven't seen, Lens, will BLOW YOUR MIND! Cliche' westerns without any horses ... ROTFL! c. 1975 or so

[23:25] <Lensman> It was very nice when I joined the "War of the Worlds" forum and several members there immediately got the Lensman reference. I knew I had found a new home right away.

[23:26] <FlyingDragon> I can't stay on. I have to make up my bed and put the kids down.

[23:26] <Agincourtdb> not in the veterinary sense I hope

[23:26] <FlyingDragon> GOtta figure which side is the least bit softer for me. MIght have to turn the mattress!!!!

[23:26] <Fred> _02_"this one's short"

[23:26] <SeanS> lipstick and blush on the bed, eh?

[23:27] <FlyingDragon> No, agincourt.

[23:27] <Bill> I knew Verna from MosCons ... Doc Smith was part of my background. Good night, Carol. Have a better dsay

[23:27] <Fred> _02_don't forget to apply a light base to the mattress before you make it up

[23:27] <FlyingDragon> I'm not certian she wears lipstick. THe softer side woudl be the side Master sir slept on since he weights more than master ma'am.

[23:27] <Agincourtdb> I turned my matress the other day because there was a whole in it...and i found a whole in the bottom

[23:27] <FlyingDragon> TY, fred.

[23:27] <Agincourtdb> i defnitely need a new one

[23:27] <FlyingDragon> night

[23:28] <Agincourtdb> a hole that is

[23:28] <Agincourtdb> night

[23:28] <Lensman> Those are live actors "animated" with pixilation, right? That's a style of animation we never used in our two previous film fests. We're doing comedy this year. I really should check out "Blaze Glory". Wonder if it's available on DVD?

[23:28] <SeanS> night carol, thanks for earlier

[23:28] * FlyingDragon is now known as InvisibleDragon

[23:28] <Bill> brb, biobreak and a piece of pizza that needs to be nuked.

[23:29] <Fred> _02_gonna see if Mom needs playing with, bbl

[23:29] <Agincourtdb> ok I'm going too

[23:29] <Agincourtdb> later all

[23:29] * Agincourtdb has quit IRC

[23:30] <Lensman> Goodnite to all leaving.

[23:32] <SeanS> i left to go to a derby party about a quarter of five eastern. did the chat pick up between then and now?

[23:35] <Bill> (Bsack) Dunno, Sean, I got here late ... I heard about Frank's passing and had to make some arrangements.

[23:36] <Lensman> I had to attend a mandatory party, just got back a few hours ago.

[23:36] <Bill> Are we the only ones left?

[23:36] <Lensman> I guess neither Larry nor Ed Lerner made it in today?

[23:36] <Lensman> May be. HEY NICK ARE YOU THERE??

[23:36] <SeanS> i dont know... was gone

[23:36] <Bill> not on my watch ...

[23:37] <SeanS> i have it logged but it is almost 12 so i am not going to check tonight

[23:37] <Bill> *:37 by Central Washington time.

[23:38] <Lensman> Well I've got the entire chat in my mIRC since I signed in this morning, but haven't had time to read it all yet. I didn't see "Organlegger" anywhere I scanned, anyway.

[23:38] <Bill> ^8:37^

[23:38] <SeanS> he has been coming in as larry lately

[23:38] <Lensman> Oh, thanx.

[23:38] <SeanS> np

[23:39] <SeanS> the news about frank hit me hard this morning

[23:39] <Lensman> Has anyone heard anthing about an ARC for /Fleet of Worlds/? Cat asked on the list if the delay in the book meant the ARCs were not out, so apparently he never got the one that someone was spoze to send him.

[23:40] <Lensman> I wish I had had the opportunity to meet Frank in person.

[23:40] <Bill> Lens, I'm gonna try to pick up some of these Fleischer "Gulliver" DVDs from the Dollar Store ... the art on the cover is obnoxiously bad but it's the best I've seen for copies of the Paramount feature. I'd be glad to send you one.

[23:40] <SeanS> thats the last i got, david, if the book got bumbed back i can onlly assume that the arc did as well

[23:41] <Lensman> Er well thanks but if you send me your artwork that's really more than I would have expected as a "thanks". If it's at the dollar store surely I can find a copy?

[23:41] <SeanS> i talked to frank and peggy all the time on the phone but never met them either. regardless, i considered frank and peggy good friends

[23:43] <Bill> You wish. They had about 5 and they throw "trash" out ... based on most of the stuff they carry, I'd guess most of it was trashed. It was by accident that I found out what I had ...

[23:43] <Lensman> I'm embarrassed at the stuff people want to send me. A lurker on the List sent me a private e-mail and offered me a copy of the Ringworld RPG "Companion" as a thanks for all my posts, after that week where we hammered out what the *real* reason was for building the Ringworld. I informed him that those things were worth their weight in gold on e-bay, and he should find someone who didn't already have a copy!

[23:44] <Lensman> Okay, okay, so send me the "Gulliver's Travels" DVD too. You're just setting me up to say "I will do you this favor. But someday I will come to you and ask for something in return. And you will do this thing for me."

[23:45] <Lensman> :)

[23:46] <Bill> Sean, Frank was simply the *one* filksinger you wanted at any convention, anywhere. He was a card, he was fun to listen to and a consummate performer. And he's the *ONLY* person besides me to perform "The Ballad of Apollo XIII" correctly, even Leslie blew it when she published it.

[23:46] <SeanS> i understand

[23:46] <Bill> And, no, Dave, I don't ask for favors. Phandom has done that for me.

[23:47] <SeanS> he was so pissed when his hands wouldnt work well for him

[23:47] <Bill> I'm hoping to pay them back in the time I have left.

[23:47] <Lensman> I think I should dig out my WesterCon Filk book and get you to tell me what the error is.

[23:48] <Bill> Errors, perhaps ... Which Westercon?

[23:49] <Lensman> Hmmm, it's not in the /Westerfilk/ collection. And I don't see my smaller filk zines. Oh, well.

[23:51] <Lensman> I put most of my books in order after joining the LN list because I wanted to be able to reference them, but my magazines are still in disarray.

[23:51] <Bill> I wrote the song in about 1978, I think it was about 1979 that I met "The Other Bill Warren" at a Westercon in LA, and I met Frank at Iguanacon in Phoenix.

[23:52] <SeanS> got a copy of apollo XIII on mp3 that you can send me?

[23:53] <Lensman> So, you were doing fan art decades ago, but only recently pro art? Is that right?

[23:53] * Hippy has joined #knownspace

[23:53] <SeanS> hi DJ

[23:53] <Hippy> Howdy, Sean

[23:53] <Lensman> Welcome Hippy

[23:53] <Hippy> Good evening, Lensman Sad news, isn't it?

[23:54] <Bill> Can't be right ... I was living in California when St. Helens blew ...Sorry, Sean, Leslie might (Minus Ten And Counting is the album) but Frank and I had planned to build a duet before his heart attack. Hello, Hippy! Welcome aboard.

[23:55] <Hippy> Hello, Bill. It's good to be here.

[23:55] <Lensman> Yes. I can't say I found it as much of a shock as some did-- one or two of the e-mail reports made it clear "we're trying to be optimistic"-- but still it was a shock and a real letdown after hoping he was recovering.

[23:56] <Hippy> You got that right. I toasted his mrmory last night over a few vinos - which explains why I'm so late on today.

[23:56] <SeanS> every beer i cracked today was aimed at phoenix

[23:56] <Hippy> What a lovely phrase!

[23:57] <Bill> "Pinky" and I commisserated over this at some length, Lens ... he's a part-time EMT and his wife is an RN ... that age, that much stress, diabetes, everything else ,,, it was pretty clear. Not happy truths, but truths.

[23:58] <Bill> I tip my beer toward the Phoenix ... may it rise yet again!

[23:58] <SeanS> night before i found out i mentioned out of the blue to my girlfriend that i didnt think i would ever talk to frank again

[23:59] <SeanS> woke up this morning and had an email from carol telling me

[23:59] <Bill> And I pawed through two dozen stacks of videos to find "Flight Of The Phoenix" and didn't know why ... and wasn't satisfied until I found one of them!

Session Time: Sun May 06 00:00:00 2007

[00:00] <Lensman> http://www.hobbyspace.com/Music/music7.html

[00:00] <Bill> The new one, sadly ... I know Frank liked the Jimmy Stewart version better.

[00:00] <Lensman> "Minus 10 and Counting" is listed above. Not sure if you can order it there or not.

[00:01] <Lensman> Oh, Pinky knew him well? That doesn't surprise me if Frank was a big space fan.

[00:02] <Bill> 's'okay, Lens ... Kelly and I illustrated the songbook, we signed each others'.

[00:03] <Bill> No, Pinky only met Frank at Worldcon '84 ...

[00:03] <Bill> But they had much in common

[00:04] <Bill> I do meet such interesting people in my circle of friends ... you all included

[00:04] <Hippy> Why, thank you :)

[00:04] <SeanS> thank you, bill

[00:04] <Lensman> Thank you. Bill, have you done any other Niven illos?

[00:04] <Bill> Why, you're welcome!

[00:06] <Bill> Well, I did *one* when I was AGOH at a V-Con in Vancouver, Canada, but it was more like making fun of Frank Herbert, who was GOH at the con.

[00:06] <Lensman> Oh?

[00:07] * Hippy afk for much-needed tea

[00:07] <Bill> I did an imaginary book cover for a novel by Niven and Herbert, using the best shit I could steal from John Schoenherr and Rick Sternbach. Muad'dib calling the Maker with the infinite Arch in the sky ...

[00:08] <Bill> Sorry in advance for this ...

[00:08] <Lensman> "Maker" is a sandworm, right?

[00:08] <Bill> Yes

[00:09] <Bill> The imaginary novel was "Ringworm"

[00:09] <Lensman> Aarghh!

[00:09] <Bill> Neither author ever let me forget how tasteless it was, but they laughed.

[00:10] <Hippy> LOL!!! I just got back to see that. Well done!!

[00:10] <Lensman> Hippy, since you just came in, I'll ask you the same: Do you know of any Known Space fan art I could use for my Concordance website, or do you have any contact info for any artist whose art is at the Known Space website?

[00:11] <Hippy> I'm afriad I don't have any of that info, Lensman

[00:12] <Hippy> I suppose it would have to be fan art? Rick Sternbach's cover for 'Tales of Known Space' is pretty good, though you'd have to pay to use it, I suppose

[00:12] <Bill> I sure wish I knew where that original went ... it was a tiny little thing, about the size of a postcard ...

[00:13] <Lensman> Some of the digital paintings at the Known Space site are gorgeous. I hope I can find who did those and get permission to use them on my site too. Bill's "Lying Bastard" painting is wonderful to have on the front page, but I'd like more for other sections of the site.

[00:14] <Bill> Sternbach has a sense of humor, you might ask him! (Or I could try, I haven't spoken to him for a while.) He put a McDonald's on the Ringworld, he has a sense of humor!

[00:14] <Lensman> Obviously I'm not going to pay for pro art for a fan site. This website isn't intended to be profitable.

[00:14] <Hippy> That dates it. It'd be a Starbucks now

[00:14] <Lensman> Sure I could ask, but I don't know what his contract with Del Rey is or was.

[00:15] <Hippy> Well, the phrase 'scan it and steal it' comes to mind, but it might be a bit risky

[00:17] <Lensman> Wikipedia apparently thinks it's okay to post anything as long as you claim it's "low resolution". But that's never been established in court. Anyway, this website will be my masterwork and I'm not gonna compromise it by using behavior whose ethics I disapprove of.

[00:17] <Bill> ASK HIM! How long has it been, and at the resolution you're running for a website, what does he lose and gain? A market for gis prints (gain) a bit of exposure to a vertical audience (gain) and people stealing an image they can print out on their home computers that's good enough to undercut his market...? (Sorry, not a chance ... you're giving him free advertising! He'll go for it!)

[00:17] <Lensman> Thanks for the encouragement Bill!

[00:19] <Hippy> There you go. I disapprove of the 'steal it' thing, too, but Bill's arguments are quite correct. He painted the thing 32 years ago so there'd be people interested in Niven who've never even seen it

[00:21] <Bill> Rick is a straight-up guy, you can make a deal with him. He still owes me some Illustrator files for his Skateboard (74656) but I think he'd be amenable to allowing you to use some of his Niven art. Now, whether the PUBLISHERS would allow it, THERE'S another question...

[00:21] <Lensman> Could be they haven't seen it. The Wikipedia site has some art, but not Sternbach's.

[00:21] <Lensman> It does have that bizarre first-edition cover with the Ringworld habitat rotated 90 degrees.

[00:22] <Bill> Publishers yet again, Lens ...

[00:22] <Lensman> Which means...?

[00:23] <Lensman> That was 1970. I wonder if it was a lingering trace of the abstract art which disgraced so many SF books back then, or if the artist really didn't read the book enuff to understand what he was painting.

[00:24] <Lensman> I should say, disgraced them in the '60s.

[00:25] <Bill> Rick told me about an art director that didn't want to buy his cover painting because it wasn't realistic enough. So on his next assignment, he painted a life-sized fly cattywompus on the border of the painting. The whole time this same asshole AD was saying the painting wasn't realistic, he kept swatting at the fly Rick put there to expose the guy as a jerk. True tale. A Niven cover.

[00:28] <Bill> Sternbach will work with you, I'd almost bet.

[00:28] <Hippy> That is magnificent!

[00:31] <Lensman> Yes, that's a great tale!

[00:32] <Fred> _02_reading back . . . for some reason I was sure Frank would pull out of it :\

[00:32] <Fred> _02_I was putting together some audio book stuff for him

[00:33] <Bill> Artists are always looking for a market and for exposure (and I don't necessarily mean 'personal' exposure) but ask us ... most of the old timers learned from Kelly Freas, whose motto was "Anything I know is yours!"

[00:36] <Bill> Speaking of "personal exposure", I'm going to add for the newcomers ... Please check out the website of one of the Niven Chatters, http://www.aphelion-webzine.com/ ... and I'll brag here a bit, I got to do their cover art this month. Hope you like it!

[00:36] <Fred> _02_cool bill

[00:36] <Lensman> Bill, I'm sure you're better at this sort of thing than I, being an artist: The Ringworld has a radius of 92 million miles, which means it's 184 million miles across and one million miles wide. You couldn't possibly do a painting in scale showing both a near and far section, could you? At a ratio of 1:182, the far side would be invisibly thin. I think.

[00:36] <Bill> Thank you, sir Fred

[00:37] <Lensman> My only objection is there's no way to blow the painting up. *Boom!* No, I mean... ;-)

[00:37] <Bill> Depends on your lens, Lens.

[00:38] <Lensman> LOL! Walked right into that one, didn't I.

[00:38] <Bill> How would Hubble see it? Pretty flat, IMHO

[00:38] <Fred> _02_sure you can see both sides

[00:39] <Lensman> It would depend on the viewing angle. Ringworld's plane of rotation intersects the galactic core, but I have no idea which direction it lies from Earth.

[00:40] <Fred> _02_yeah, but from Earth, you'd have so much magnification on it that both sides would be the same size

[00:41] <Lensman> Obviously it would be more visible with the underside facing the viewer than seen as a perfect circle, in which case you'd see only the 1000 mile high rim walls and not the million-mile wide ring.

[00:41] <Bill> No, I discovered when I did the tee shirt for Larry's appearance ar RadCon in February ... you would NOT see the outside of the ring, but you *WOULD* see reflected light from the inner face of the Ring to the outer face of the Shadow Squares, which basically means you'd never have a moonless night on the inner face of the Ring.

[00:41] <Lensman> That's true, Fred.

[00:42] <Fred> _02_you pretty much wouldn't see anything as a 'perfect circle' -- that would be the black outside of the rim walls with no light source :)

[00:42] <Lensman> That's true, seeing the underside is only by artistic license. At least in the visible light spectrum. In infrared, it would be different.

[00:42] <Fred> _02_you'd be seeing the star, and a thousand mile black circle at a 93m mile radius

[00:43] <Bill> And even with Hubble's visual acuity, an edge-on view of the ring (perpendicular to the axis of rotation) would be invisible

[00:43] <Lensman> You'd get a lot of "earthshine" from the lit portions of the ring, even if the backside of the shadow squares are perfectly non-reflective black.

[00:44] <Fred> _02_yes

[00:44] <Bill> My point

[00:44] <Fred> _02_I think the easiest way around that is to dim the sun a bit

[00:44] <Bill> LOL...

[00:44] <Fred> _02_IIRC, the ringworld primary is cooler than Sol anyway

[00:44] <Fred> _02_gah, dimmer

[00:45] <Lensman> LOL yeah, who needs shadow squares? TURN THAT LIGHT OFF WE'RE TRYING TO SLEEP! <click>

[00:45] <Bill> And make some son less dim as President ... ooops, sorry, did I say that out loud?

[00:47] <Bill> Frank would have approved ... he liked puns.

[00:47] <Lensman> Of course, in this case you still get light for 8 minutes after the <click>, but-- what is it they say?-- everthing has the flaws of its virtues. Or something to that effect.

[00:49] <Bill> Who among us has been witness to a total solar eclipse? I was fortunate enough once, and it's the closest thing I can compare to a Shadow Square encroachment.

[00:49] <Fred> _02_oops. I was right the first time. Cooler.

[00:50] <Fred> _02_" The sun itself was a yellow dwarf somewhat cooler than Sol and a touch smaller."

[00:50] <Lensman> I've seen a total lunar eclipse but not, I think, a total solar one.

[00:51] <Lensman> That Allan Quatermain was pretty lucky, I'd say. <g>

[00:52] <Bill> So, is Sol a G0 (zero) star, and would that make a "slightly cooler and smaller" sun a high "F" or a low "G1"

[00:52] <Hippy> Saw a total solar one in 1976

[00:52] <Fred> _02_the ringworld sun is a G2

[00:52] <Bill> Where, Hippy? (Mine was in 1978)

[00:53] <Hippy> Melbourne, Australia

[00:53] <Lensman> OBAFGKM. F stars are hotter, K stars are cooler. So after G9 the next category would be K0.

[00:53] <Hippy> Ah, thanks, Fred. I was just going to rush down and grab Ringworld Engineers to find that out

[00:53] <Bill> Thank you, Fred! Helpful news, if I'm going to be contributing to Lensman's Concordance.

[00:54] <Lensman> I would cheat and look at the Ringworld RPG's stats on the Ringworld and its sun.

[00:55] <Hippy> Now, I just read that the smallest resolvable line to the human eye is about 10 microns, so you could paint the far side of the Ringworld that big and the near side would be 1820 microns wide

[00:55] <Fred> _02_I read Chyron's original briefing to the motley crew

[00:55] <Fred> _02_I was sure that's where I remembered dimmer or cooler from

[00:55] <Hippy> Oops. I mean 100 microns and 18200 microns

[00:55] <Bill> I understood there were four new categories of star after that old saw ... Classes N,D,I, and Q.

[00:55] <Lensman> G2 would be cooler than G0, is that right? I think so.

[00:56] <Bill> "Oh, Be A Fine Girl, Kiss Me! Now, Do It Quick!"

[00:56] <Hippy> That's right. But then in one of the later books it does mention K9 for the star's spectrum type

[00:57] <Hippy> Now there's a mnemonic - Good God, I need one to remember how to spell it

[00:57] <Fred> _02_we just HAVE to ignore the later books :)

[00:57] <Lensman> Wow! Oh Be A Fine Girl Kiss Me Right Now, Smack! ... if you want the whole mnemonic.

[00:58] <Hippy> This may sound like blasphemy but I would put 'Ringworld's Children' in that pile.

[00:58] <Fred> _02_LOL, I googled for yellow dwarfs and it brought up Jim Loy's known space page

[00:58] <Lensman> D, I and Q class stars? Is that an obscure joke or is my astronomical knowledge that far out of date?

[00:59] <Fred> _02_spectral types are OBAFGKM

[00:59] <Fred> _02_P & Q are non stellar spectral types

[01:00] <Lensman> Some people get upset when I talk about the Discontinuity between the early KS series-- 1976 and before-- and the later KS series. As though the later series was an alternate-universe KS. Starting with RE.

[01:00] <Bill> I think either Poul Anderson or Ted Sturgeon speculated with me over those classifications one night in an inebriated stupor. They both had wicked senses of humor.

[01:00] * Hippy AFK (another mnemonic?) for another much-needed tea

[01:00] <Lensman> OBAFGKM are the normal spectrum, W R N S are the strange ones.

[01:00] <Fred> _02_Hippy, I agree with you about Ringworld's Children

[01:01] <Fred> _02_too much of it contradicts Ringworld and Ringworld Engineers

[01:01] <Fred> _02_If I have to throw out something, it's going to be Children

[01:02] <Bill> Hey, but Lens, I was *muy* impressed with some of the art you gathered for the "Get Well Cards" ... the Protector piece knocked my sox off and stole every image I had, but better!

[01:03] <Lensman> Specifically what contradictions are you talking about? I know there are some, but maybe I missed a few.

[01:03] <Fred> _02_big problems with teela

[01:03] <Lensman> Thanks! But that Protector image is right off one of the paperback editions.

[01:03] <Fred> _02_who's 20 in Ringworld, but way older when she first hits the ring in Children

[01:04] <Lensman> Oh yes, I had forgotten that one. And don't try to match the dates given in RE with the timeline in RT, either.

[01:05] <Fred> _02_okay, it looks like the higher the number in the stellar classification, the older and cooler the star is

[01:05] <Fred> _02_so G0 is younger and hotter, G2 is older and cooler

[01:05] <Lensman> That's what I thought, a higher number is cooler.

[01:05] <Fred> _02_took me WAY too long to confirm that

[01:06] <Fred> _02_but sol is G2V

[01:06] <Fred> _02_so now I'm more confused than ever

[01:06] <Lensman> I don't think necessarily older, tho. The age limit increases, but a star burns at a certain temp according to its mass, not its age, until it reaches the end of its normal lifespan.

[01:06] <Lensman> "V" means what? variable?

[01:07] <Fred> _02_The V (Roman five) suffix indicates that the Sun, like most stars, is a main sequence star.

[01:07] <Bill> We live in an infinite universe filled with infinite quanta universes, children. Don't bicker ... somewhere the Captain of the Starship Enterprise really looks like BillShat without the rug and Patrick Stewart has a Jimi Hendrix afro.

[01:07] <Fred> _02_lol, suddenly I'm hearing the narrator from forbidden planet

[01:08] <Fred> _02_THE GREAT MAIN SEQUENCE STAR ALTAIR

[01:09] <Lensman> RPG says it's a "dG3e verging on dG2e", with a mass 0.97 Sol. I have no idea what the "d" and "e" designations mean.

[01:09] <Fred> _02_G stars range from 5k to 6k. Sol is 5.5k, so the ringworld primary (which needs a name, tanjit) is between 5.5k and 5k

[01:09] <Bill> Which star, and planet, Enterprise TOS was on its way to when Spock went into Ponn Farr. (Interesting, the C-57-D entered standard orbit at 1701 shipboard time ... FYI

[01:09] <Fred> _02_yes, I noticed that

[01:10] <Fred> _02_we watched FP the other night

[01:10] <Bill> Gene had a lot of fun with that show, however much heartbreak it caused him

[01:11] <Fred> _02_They were headed for Altair 6, btw

[01:11] <Lensman> Yah, it's really strange the Ringworld's sun never got a name in four novels. "Ringworld Parameters" in RE says "G3 verging on G2, barely smaller and cooler than Sol."

[01:11] <Fred> _02_be nice if it was cooler enough that the added light from the arch ended up being earth normal

[01:12] <Bill> It's no wonder you're doing the Concordance. Really, Lens, could I be of service?

[01:12] <Lensman> LOL yah people express disbelief when I tell them that much of Trek's tech and even the hull # comes from "Forbidden Planet".

[01:12] <Lensman> Bill: Art. I need art. Other than that, do you have any web building skills?

[01:13] <Hippy> NOw that is interesting. I will have to watch FP again, after I get through the rest of Season 1 of "Lost in Space'

[01:13] <Fred> _02_Lost in Space and The Time Tunnel owe more to FP than Trek does, IMHO

[01:13] <Hippy> The game says the star is '200 Coma Berenices' if I recall correctly. But the natives never seem to name it

[01:14] <Bill> And both of those selections (Altair VI) were Ted Sturgeon's work.

[01:14] <Lensman> Pay particular attention to the opening scene *before* they land on the planet. Listen to the opening narration and the tech talk. The 1701 number is in the tech-talk.

[01:15] <Fred> _02_Chyron says the ringworld sun is EC-1752

[01:15] <Hippy> I"d do that right now but I'd have to change computers. I'll definitely listen to it more thoroughly. (It's amazing how inattentive I seem to be.)

[01:16] <Hippy> Okay, now that we're on to Trek, you have to see this: http://granades.com/2007/05/02/loltrek/

[01:16] <Bill> Web-building ... What do I look like, a spider? If I had any web-building experience, you'd all be grousing at my ham-handed trewatment of Kubrick by now. But art ... yes, tell me what you'd like to see, I know Larry well enough that I can ask what I don't know and his work well enough to fake much of the rest.

[01:16] <Lensman> Oh don't feel bad. *I* wouldn't have known except for the Laser Rangers discussion and the fact that the co-founder of Laser Rangers is a fanatic about FP. He knows all this stuff and went into it in some detail in his film notes when we ran that movie.

[01:17] <Lensman> Sorry Bill... you said you don't have your own website, I shoulda known.

[01:18] <Fred> _02_we watched the special edition of FP, and ran the alternate narration too

[01:18] <Lensman> But really, what sort of help did you have in mind? If you did illos for Bjo's Concordance, you could do some line drawings which could be scanned in for mine. At least I presume that would be quicker and easier for you to do than digital paintings.

[01:18] <Hippy> Well, you have now convinced me to get that special edition

[01:20] <Fred> _02_I got it for Xmas. Comes with a toy robot. :)

[01:20] <Lensman> What would I like to see? I suppose mainly, drawings of the different KS species, mainly, I suppose. Or an illo for any story or stories in KS.

[01:21] <Lensman> Bill, do you have a scanner?

[01:21] <Bill> Depends on what you want, Lens. I'm pretty good at digital these days, they even look like scratchboard and pen/ink. In fact, when Stan Schmidt looked at my piece for "Vertex" (Analog, sometime late this year) he said he wished he could run it in color.

[01:22] <Bill> Yes, I have a scanner. I seldom use it.

[01:22] <Lensman> Well of course color would be even better! I was just thinking I'd be more likely to get a greater number of illos if you dashed off a few (or several) quick line drawings.

[01:23] <Lensman> Anyway I'll send you the descriptions of various races and leave it in your capable hands.

[01:23] <Fred> _02_speaking of ham handed treatment of Kubrick

[01:23] <Bill> 3DS MAX, POSER, and Photoshop are my tools of choice these days. I carry prismacolor pencils and sharpies to entertain crowds. I do paintings for my friends.

[01:24] <Fred> _02_why did no one (but me) do a 2001 calendar for, you know, 2001?

[01:24] <Lensman> You understand, I hope, that I can offer no remuneration except my thanks and whatever exposure my website can give you. I don't know how much that will wind up being.

[01:25] <Lensman> Fred: I dunno, some of us *still* think 2001 was the best SF movie ever made.

[01:25] <Bill> Fred, why didn't MGM release the full-length version of "2001" in "2001" that I remember seeing in theaters?

[01:26] <Bill> EVEN ON DVD!??

[01:26] <Bill> FOR PURISTS??

[01:27] <Bill> Lens: Look in this eye (this one right here.)

[01:27] <Bill> Do you see any concern?

[01:27] <Bill> There isn't any in this one either.

[01:28] <Hippy> You've got a nice turn of phrase there, Bill

[01:28] <Bill> Thank you, Hippy. I owe it to Roger Tener.

[01:28] <Lensman> Leonard Maltin sez "Cut by 17 minutes after premiere, by Kubrick himself."

[01:29] <Lensman> LOL! Bill, I was pretty sure you understood that when I said "fan art" I meant "free", but I just wanted to be sure there was no misunderstanding.

[01:30] <Bill> Ah, but what a spectaculat 17 minutes! The rendezvous/docking sequence suffered most. And Maltin is a dweeb, younger than m. He wasn't old enough to go to the movies by himself. (I was a soph in HS when it opened.)

[01:32] <Fred> _02_Maltin's like Richard Schickel. He has people that go to the movies for him.

[01:32] <Fred> _02_The only difference is, he admits it.

[01:33] <Lensman> *Shrug* Nonetheless I suspect Maltin knows of what he says. If there was no "extended DVD version" then it's most likely because Kubrick didn't want one. He insisted the aspect ratio on "Dr. Strangelove" be restored to his orignal Golden Aspect Ratio (4:3) on the new version of the DVD even tho the studio put the theatrical release out widescreen.

[01:33] <Bill> They butchered "2001" a couple of times after Kubrick's cut ... I know.

[01:34] <Lensman> That's true, Leonard Maltin's Guide is a group effort; he's the editor rather than the author. Is that a surprise? 19,000 entries is a bit much for one person!

[01:35] <Bill> Who besides me recalls that the first time you saw the Station, it was angled-on, rotating like a pie-plate on the floor near your feet but getting closer and closer ... and you went through the spokes of the rotating wheels?

[01:37] <Hippy> I have to say that I recall little of the movie after the apes bit. Call me a Philistine, but I don't like Kubrick

[01:37] <Lensman> I can't. My memory has *never* been that good. 1968 was a long time ago. Actually that's before I moved to K.C., there's no way I ever saw it in its first run.

[01:37] <Bill> It's OK, hippy, Kubrick didn't like us much either. Hence, "2001"

[01:38] <Bill> :D

[01:39] <Lensman> I certainly don't like all Kubrick's films. I can't bear to watch "A Clockwork Orange", and "Eyes Wide Shut" was pretty dire. "Barry Lyndon" didn't work for me, either. (Why try to make a *motion* *picture* like as series of still paintings?) But "2001" and "Dr. Strangelove" are brilliant!

[01:40] <Bill> Kubrick was a consummate filmmaker, to hell with public opinion. If he wanted B-52s flying over Russian steppes throwing shadowd of B-17s, that was perfectly OK for the story he was telling.

[01:40] <Fred> _02_A friend of mine is this huge Kubrick fan

[01:41] <Fred> _02_he was horrified when he didn't like Eyes Wide Shut

[01:41] <Fred> _02_he went to it over and over and over and over and over again until he convinced himself he liked it

[01:41] <Hippy> Who could like anything that both Cruise and KIdman in it? The horror, the horror. . .

[01:41] <Lensman> LOL! Hey, there are even stories by My Favorite Author I don't care for.

[01:42] <Hippy> Which ones?

[01:42] <Fred> _02_remember Ebert had a special show with half a dozen critics, all trying to convince the audience that they HAD to like EWS?

[01:42] <Bill> I only have a problem with "Full Metal Jacket" ... and that because it's too damn close to cinema verite.

[01:43] <Lensman> Oh, "Tedric", "Lord Tedric", the revised "Triplanetary"... <Lensman whistles and looks at the ceiling innocently.>

[01:44] <Lensman> *

[01:45] <Hippy> And here I was thinking that Niven was your favourite author

[01:45] <Fred> _02_you hear they cast rosie odonnell as Wonder Woman?

[01:45] <Fred> _02_http://tinyurl.com/2ma59c

[01:45] <Lensman> -/Subspace Explorer/ was pretty dire, too. Altho oddly enuff I liked the sequel /Subspace Survivors/.

[01:45] <Bill> Please , please, Lensman, be aware of what you're displaying! (What part of a human body looks like a (*)?)

[01:46] <Lensman> Hippy: Now you know why I was looking *too* innocent. :-) No way am I gonna start a discussion of "Which Niven stories don't I like" here!

[01:46] <Fred> _02_we already ragged on Ringworld's Children

[01:46] <Hippy> Probably a wise move

[01:47] <Fred> _02_And remember when Larry himself said he was considering a 'director's cut' of Throne that would have put Louis in the action?

[01:47] <Bill> Rosie O'Donnell as Wonder Woman ... O gawd, somebody pass me the mental floss, gouge-gouge-scrape-scrape

[01:47] <Hippy> Yes, we did. And unless Sean mails these logs to Larry himself, we should be safe :)

[01:47] <Lensman> A belly button? <Lensman continues to look overly innocent>

[01:47] <Fred> _02_A belly button or two

[01:47] <Lensman> Hey! I enjoyed RC very much!

[01:48] <Fred> _02_remembers when we thought mariette hartley was hot

[01:48] <Hippy> I sure do!

[01:48] <Lensman> Well yes, the fact that too much of RT was Louis sitting around watching a movie was part of why it's not my favorite Niven story.

[01:48] * Hippy runs to shelf and gets 'All Our Yesterdays' out on DVD and freeze frAmes it

[01:48] <Bill> Mariette Hartley *WAS* hot!! How can you not want to play with a woman with two navels?

[01:49] <Lensman> She WAS hot in her day!

[01:49] <Bill> I'd eat animal flesh with her ANY ice age!

[01:50] <Hippy> Now why does that 'two navels' ring a bell? It's not from 'Star Trek', is it?

[01:50] <Fred> _02_mmmmmmmmmmm, a_____________________________nimal flesh

[01:50] <Fred> _02_no, the two navels is Genesis 2

[01:50] <Fred> _02_One navel for each Genesis

[01:50] <Lensman> Hippy: These discussions are archived, and anyone can read them at any time. I try to say nothing here that's not for public consumption. If you want a private chat, we can go to chatzy.com.

[01:50] <Hippy> Ah, thanks. That would've driven me nuts

[01:50] <Bill> Another Roddenberry project. Tube trains.

[01:51] <Fred> _02_yep

[01:51] <Fred> _02_first of 4 versions of that story

[01:51] <Hippy> That's okay, Lens. Even Niven we don't like is for public consumption

[01:51] <Bill> I'll proudly say in public that I think Mariette Hartley was hot, Hippy.

[01:52] <Lensman> Yes, 2 navels is from Rodenberry's next attempt at an SF TV series, "Genesis 2". And yes, the women had 2 navels. Supposedly Rodenberry's reaction to never being allowed to show a navel on Star Trek.

[01:52] <Hippy> I'd register a domain name called that, Bill

[01:52] <Lensman> I must be getting tired, repeating myself.

[01:52] <Lensman> I must be getting tired, repeating myself.

[01:52] <Lensman> :-)

[01:53] <Fred> _02_They had navels on Trek

[01:53] <Hippy> Never showed a navel? But what about 'The Cloud Minders'? I'm pretty sure. . .well, here's to a few days perving :)

[01:53] <Fred> _02_yep

[01:53] <Fred> _02_Nimoy stuck his finger in it

[01:53] <Bill> Be my guest, Hippy. I'm just hanging on to "Warrenpiece.net"

[01:53] <Fred> _02_that was EXACTLY the one I was thinking of, Hippy :)

[01:53] <Lensman> LOL! Warrenpiece...

[01:54] <Hippy> Yes. . .now, who was that? Damn. . .I should know this instantly

[01:54] <Lensman> Perhaps they showed navels on 3rd season Trek after Roddenberry left the show?

[01:54] <Fred> _02_And I'll bet you quatloos to space donuts that we got navels in MIRROR MIRROR

[01:54] <Fred> _02_Including Uhura's

[01:55] <Lensman> I suspect if you look you'll find no navels. Even that *extremely* revealing costume in "Who Mourns for Adonis?" (yumm!) covered the actress' navel.

[01:56] <Bill> They finally got over the "navels as erogenous zones" trauma when the head of NBC Standards retired in 1969 or so. For ten quatloos, does anybody remember her name?

[01:56] <Fred> _02_Pricilla Goodbody

[01:56] <Bill> FRED WINS!

[01:56] <Lensman> LOL! And some find James Bond names sexist...

[01:56] <Fred> _02_:)

[01:57] <Bill> This is ghod's honest truth, Lens!

[01:57] <Lensman> Oh I don't doubt it.

[01:58] <Bill> Can't you just see Foghorn Leghorn talking to her, and she's going "YuhhAAYuss!"

[01:58] <Hippy> Diana Ewing was who I was thinking of a few sentence ago

[01:58] <Fred> _02_HEY LENSMAN

[01:58] <Fred> _02_http://trekmovie.com/wp-content/uploads/mirror/sulu_uhura.jpg

[01:58] <Lensman> Well I have to eat my words, doing a Google image search <"mirror mirror" + uhura> shows a big fat naked navel all right!

[01:58] <Fred> _02_or that

[01:58] <Fred> _02_:)

[01:59] <Bill> Nichelle did her share of nude photography as an aspiring starlet. Dishy, she was!~

[01:59] <Lensman> So what *was* the deal with the navels then? Maybe it was a standard introduced later, after some several of the episodes had been filmed?

[02:00] <Fred> _02_well, we have navels in second season and third season, so far

[02:00] <Bill> "Erogenous Zone Restriction", Lens

[02:00] <Fred> _02_If I can find a first season navel, and I bet I can, then we have them throughout

[02:01] <Fred> _02_another navel

[02:01] <Fred> _02_NOT

[02:01] <Fred> _02_WORK

[02:01] <Fred> _02_SAFE

[02:01] <Fred> _02_http://www.vegasretro.com/glamour/photos/shahna_star_trek2_r.jpg

[02:02] <Hippy> Impressive

[02:02] <Lensman> Oh yah, I've seen that one before. Someone linked to it on a list I'm on. I think the actress became a porn star?

[02:02] <Fred> _02_Yes. or was one already

[02:02] <Fred> _02_vegas showgirl, etc

[02:03] <Bill> There's been my argument since 1968 ... "MORE RAW SEX ON STAR TREK!"

[02:03] <Fred> _02_hmm. all mudds women are covered

[02:04] <Lensman> LOL! That would give new meaning to the term "special edition"...

[02:04] <Lensman> You'll find the "android" women in "What Are Little Girls Made Of" have covered navels too, despite revealing costumes.

[02:04] <Bill> Kirk's Drill Thrall in "Gamesters" was a porn queen ... also very nice lady ... she shows up in Jittlov's "Wizard of Speed and Time" as well

[02:05] <Fred> _02_yes, I know Andrea's costume by heart

[02:05] <Fred> _02_:)

[02:05] <Fred> _02_first season has alarmingly few space babes

[02:05] <Fred> _02_unless one of the bunnys at the end of SHORE LEAVE has a navel, I may have struck out

[02:05] <Hippy> So long as it had Grrace Lee Whitney it didn't need them

[02:06] <Bill> Good thing, too ... back in first season, only Kirk's lips were fat.

[02:06] <Fred> _02_HAH

[02:06] <Fred> _02_http://allyourtrekarebelongto.us/showgirls.jpg

[02:07] <Bill> Flakey Grace ... ahh, the wonders of conventions! She was fun to party with.

[02:07] <Lensman> Covered navel:

[02:07] <Lensman> http://www.kontinuum.cz/databaze/epizody/TOS_32_2.jpg

[02:07] <Fred> _02_I leave it to you gentlemen to decide it that's navel or not

[02:07] <Lensman> But hot HOT babe!

[02:08] <Hippy> Well, it seems pretty conclusive that Ms Goodbody's word was law

[02:09] <Fred> _02_and here is navel gold

[02:09] <Fred> _02_http://www.buck-rogers.com/film_and_series/gallery/images/ardala/ardala08.jpg

[02:09] <Lensman> I have no idea if a TV censor qualified a navel with a "pasty" to be "naked" or not. What's Spock's line from "The Last Voyage of the USS Enterprise?"

[02:09] <Fred> _02_is that the National Lampoon story?

[02:09] <Fred> _02_where McCoy has Chapel hooked up to weird devices?

[02:10] * Hippy afk for umbilically inspired tea

[02:10] <Bill> Ah, but was Ms. Goodbody's Law Good?

[02:11] <Lensman> No, first season "Saturday Night Live". Chevy Chase is Spock, tries to read an NBC exec's mind, something like "It was all dark and cold, and little mice scurrying around..." then Spock becomes agitated. Can't remember the line word-for-word.

[02:11] <Bill> I do recall the NatLamp story. May still have it. They knew about Gene and Majel and Nichelle even then.

[02:11] <Fred> _02_oh

[02:11] <Fred> _02_"promise"

[02:12] <Fred> _02_that's Belushi's last line :)

[02:13] <Bill> Mice are smarter than dolphins. Or NBC execs ...

[02:13] <Lensman> Ha, got it:

[02:14] <Bill> He who laughs last ../

[02:14] <Lensman> I entered Mr. Goodman's mind while you were talking to Dr. McCoy, Captain. It was all.. all dark and empty in there. And.. and there were little mice in the corners and spiders had spun this web..

[02:14] <Lensman> But only white mice!

[02:14] <Fred> _02_okay, Yvonne Craig didn't show navel as a green orion slave girl

[02:15] <Fred> _02_but I offer you bonus pink batgirl belly button

[02:15] <Fred> _02_http://www.briansdriveintheater.com/beachparty/ycraig1.jpg

[02:15] <Fred> _02_http://www.briansdriveintheater.com/beachparty/yvonnecraig3.jpg

[02:15] <Lensman> Yvonne Craig. Ah, now SHE was a hottie! Ditto for Alicia Silverstone as Batgirl-- even hotter, yumm!

[02:16] <Bill> NOW YVONNE CRAIG WAS HOT! Her Batgirl, me freshman in high school, quant suff!

[02:16] <Fred> _02_silverstone does nothing for me

[02:16] <Hippy> Yes, Yvonne Craig

[02:16] <Fred> _02_now, Dina Meyer, THERE was a hot batgirl

[02:16] <Lensman> ?

[02:16] <Hippy> Never heard of her

[02:17] <Fred> _02_you never heard of Dina Meyer???_________________________

[02:17] <Bill> Silverstone? Wannabee. Nothing there, nobody home.

[02:17] <Lensman> Should I have?

[02:17] <Fred> _02_Johnny Mnemonic?

[02:17] <Fred> _02_Starship Troopers?

[02:17] <Lensman> Philistines.

[02:17] <Hippy> I shall check on the IMDB

[02:18] <Lensman> Starship Troopers? Ick. But what does that have to do with Batgirl?

[02:18] <Fred> _02_http://www.gothamclocktower.com/publicity4.jpg

[02:18] <Fred> _02_Dina Meyer was the babe in Starship Troopers, and Johnny Mnemonic, and was the hottest Batgirl

[02:19] <Lensman> What was she Batgirl *in*? And NO WAY is she 1/4 as hot as Alicia Silverstone!

[02:19] <Fred> _02_silverstone is too stupid to be hot

[02:19] <Fred> _02_Meyer was Batgirl in the 'Birds of Prey' TV series

[02:19] <Lensman> MMMMM Alicia Silverstone in a rubber suit, I just drool thinking about it...

[02:20] <Hippy> I"m glad Carol isn't here

[02:20] <Fred> _02_watch silverstone give an interview sometime about how dog and cat food is made from ground up puppies and kitties

[02:20] <Fred> _02_apparently because there's pictures of them on the bags

[02:20] <Fred> _02_or how she keeps her cat vegetarian

[02:20] <Bill> I think Denise Richards was the hottie in "ST" ...

[02:20] <Fred> _02_she becomes unattractive real quick

[02:21] <Hippy> Well, Fred, I'm afraid that Ms Meyer can't compete with Ms Craig in the Batgirl stakes

[02:21] <Lensman> I only watched an episode or 2 of BoP, it didn't interest me.

[02:21] <Bill> Well, by marriage.

[02:21] <Fred> _02_BoP was a weird show

[02:22] <Fred> _02_they had a showrunner who had never done the job before

[02:22] <Fred> _02_and was totally screwing it up

[02:22] <Hippy> I must say I do find Denise Richards absolutely delightful

[02:22] <Fred> _02_the network told them to get rid of her

[02:22] <Fred> _02_the production company or studio said no

[02:22] <Lensman> Darryl Hanna comes across pretty vapid in interview shows, too. Doesn't stop me from finding her a turn-on in "Blade Runner" or other movies. Perhaps I have more ability than average in keeping onscreen acting and offscreen personas separate in my mind.

[02:22] <Fred> _02_so the network cancelled the show, and actually gave a press conference naming names

[02:23] <Fred> _02_Hannah is at most a bit vapid. Silverstone is agressively stupid.

[02:23] <Bill> When it comes down to sexist remarks, I stand by Gene Roddenberry. "I think women *should* be treated as sex objects. But I think *men* should be treated as sex objects, too!"

[02:23] <Lensman> What means "showrunner"

[02:23] <Hippy> Now how stupid was the peoduction company there?

[02:23] <Fred> _02_Showrunner is a current term for what used to be 'line producer' -- basically, they're sort of in charge of everything

[02:23] <Lensman> Well, Fred, you're entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to mine.

[02:24] <Fred> _02_Hippy, I agree

[02:24] <Fred> _02_another example was THE SIMPSONS

[02:24] <Fred> _02_Klasky Csupo had a producer that the studio HATED

[02:24] <Bill> Jessica or her sister, Fred?

[02:24] <Fred> _02_they told KC to get rid of her

[02:24] <Fred> _02_KC said 'no'

[02:25] <Fred> _02_so they moved the show to another production company

[02:25] <Fred> _02_I'm not really sure what KC thought they accomplished. The producer lost her job either way.

[02:26] <Hippy> It's just these ridiculous power games they like to play for the sake of playing them

[02:26] <Fred> _02_I mean, if your key client hates the person you've got dealing with them so much that they're going to take their business elsewhere

[02:27] <Fred> _02_It should occur to you you've got a problem

[02:27] <Hippy> The production companies seem to think they're doing the network a service, without realising there are hundreds of other production companies all going for a limited number of slots. So they're in no position to dictate anything

[02:28] <Hippy> Doesn't it make you wonder how people so incompetent get into these positions in the first place?

[02:28] <Bill> And speaking of 'power', I've been up since about 2:30AM Pacific Daylight, I'm running out of gas, gents. I think I'm going to bid you all a fond "good night" and tip one last beer toward Phoenix. Here's to Frank ... long may he wave!

[02:28] <Lensman> The Peter Principle in action, I suppose.

[02:28] <Fred> _02_In my experience, they were hired by people equally incompetent :)

[02:28] <Fred> _02_No Bill

[02:28] <Hippy> To Frank. . .

[02:29] <Fred> _02_These are people that were never good at anything

[02:29] <Fred> _02_they didn't get promoted :)

[02:29] <Fred> _02_TO FRANK!

[02:29] <Hippy> Goodnight, Bill. Nice talking to you

[02:29] <Lensman> Hollywood seems full of execs who apparently have to make arbitrary changes just to demonstrate they have power, even if it's detrimental to a production. Or so I keep reading anyway; haven't had any personal exposure to Hollywood types.

[02:30] <Fred> _02_It's not the Peter Principle. It's some weird, somewhat analogus thing, more like 'right time right place'

[02:30] <Fred> _02_yes, lens, that's typical

[02:30] <Bill> Promotion isn't based on ability ... it's based on the "good ol' boy network". Good night, all. Lens, you have my email

[02:30] <Lensman> G'nite Bill. I think I'll call it a night, too. "It's a night!" :-)

[02:30] <Hippy> That's true of all executives everywhere. It's the new principle - you have to be seen to 'execute' or you're not an executive. There's no concept of governance anymore, though there is the term for it

[02:31] * Lensman has quit IRC

[02:31] <Fred> _02_here's an example. Rachel Talalay was an accountant on the Friday the 13th movies.

[02:31] <Bill> Nice to "meet" you, Hippy. Till next time ...

[02:31] * Bill has quit IRC (Quit: *g0ne*_)

[02:31] <Fred> _02_She asked 'can I write the next one' and the studio say 'sure, who gives a hoot about what crap these are'

[02:31] <Hippy> Go on, Fred - ah, you have

[02:32] <Fred> _02_so when the franchise didn't collapse, she asked if she could direct next

[02:32] <Fred> _02_and pretty soon she's got a career

[02:32] <Fred> _02_based on her being an accountant

[02:33] <Hippy> Hmm. Good point. (That wsa going to be my way in, but alas I never qualified as an accountant.)

[02:33] <Fred> _02_a friend of mine at Disney made an interesting observation once

[02:33] <Hippy> Go on

[02:33] <Fred> _02_in Hollywood, once you've directed, NOTHING can derail you, no matter HOW bad what you do is

[02:34] <Fred> _02_the only thing that can stop you is off screen crap, some sort of scandal

[02:34] <Hippy> Interesting. This reminds me of the story of Akiva Goldsberg

[02:34] <Fred> _02_but you can direct failure after failure, and somebody will keep hiring you

[02:34] <Fred> _02_shudder

[02:34] <Hippy> Shudder indeed

[02:34] <Fred> _02_and we're back to the dreadful LOST IN SPACE movie

[02:35] <Hippy> Yes. and 'Charlie's Angels'. And then he gets an Oscar!

[02:35] <Hippy> The 'capacity to fail up' as the editor of the IMDB put it

[02:37] <Fred> _02_heh

[02:38] <Fred> _02_yeah, that's another phenomena that needs a name

[02:38] <Fred> _02_where somebody hires you because you were connected with a hit

[02:38] <Fred> _02_without noticing that you were the BAD part

[02:39] <Fred> _02_I was amazed when Goldsman got an Oscar, since I won't even see something he does anymore

[02:39] <Fred> _02_he's like Joel Schumuker

[02:39] <Hippy> Exactly! In any other industry that would doom you, but not the movies

[02:39] <Fred> _02_on my boycott list :)

[02:40] <Hippy> Goldsman! Stupid Hippy, I've been calling him 'Goldsberg' but you knew who I meant

[02:40] <Fred> _02_yeah. "Akiva" was enough to make my blood run cold.

[02:40] <Hippy> LOL!

[02:40] <Fred> _02_the mother's line in LOST IN SPACE:

[02:40] <Fred> _02_"If you two are done hosing down the deck with testosterone, I've found us a way off this planet"

[02:41] <Fred> _02_and then it turns out SHE HADN'T

[02:41] <Fred> _02_that alone should have been a career ender for Akiva

[02:43] <Hippy> And yet. . .here he is. All he needs now is to direct somethinng and we're stuck with him

[02:43] <Fred> _02_lol, it's almost inevitable

[02:43] <Fred> _02_it's like, the same people wrote CATWOMAN and TERMINATOR 3

[02:44] <Fred> _02_either of those should have been a career ender - but BOTH?

[02:44] <Fred> _02_and yet, they're on track for Terminator 4

[02:45] <Hippy> Bloody hell. Terminator 3 was stupid and should've ended the franchise (although it did have Kristanna Loken)

[02:47] <Fred> _02_and yet we're getting Terminator 4, and the tv series THE SARAH CONNOR CHRONICLES

[02:47] <Fred> _02_Is there really an audience clamoring for more Terminator? 10 years ago, I'd have understood

[02:47] <Hippy> This is not good news for a man with my size hangover. . .

[02:48] <Fred> _02_heh.

[02:48] <Hippy> But movies are doing so badly now they have to try anything

[02:48] <Fred> _02_btw, hippy, what name do you use on the list?

[02:48] <Fred> _02_I'm not that conversant with the nicknames in the chat

[02:48] <Hippy> I'm D J Rout

[02:48] <Fred> _02_Hi DJ

[02:48] <Hippy> Howdy, Fred

[02:49] * Hippy afk momentarily for ablutions

[02:53] * Hippy returned

[02:55] <Hippy> So how do you know all this Hollywood stuff?

[02:58] <Fred> _02_I'm an animator

[02:58] <Fred> _02_been brushing up against these guys for 25 years now

[02:59] <Hippy> Ah. ..

[02:59] <Fred> _02_:)

[03:00] <Hippy> We appear to be the only people on the chat now, too.

[03:01] <Fred> _02_gah. how did it get to be midnight?

[03:01] <Hippy> Damn rotating Earth!

[03:02] <Hippy> It's just gone 5:00PM here. A lovely day is ending, not that I've been outside at all, due to the abovementioned hnagover

[03:02] * Hippy yawns, even though he's been up for only three and a half hours

[03:04] <Fred> _02_I think I must bail. A pleasure chatting with you DJ

[03:04] <Fred> _02_TO FRANK

[03:04] <Fred> _02_*clink*

[03:04] * Hippy clinks

[03:04] <Fred> _02_nite

[03:04] <Hippy> To Frank. . .

[03:04] <Hippy> Goodnight, Fred

[03:04] * Fred has quit IRC (Quit: *g0ne*_)

[03:04] <Hippy> Well, Sean, if you're there, I'm heading off, too. Goodnight

[03:05] <Hippy> Good night to everyone lurking, too :)

[03:05] * Hippy has quit IRC

[03:09] * CatPasswd has quit IRC (Connection reset by peer_)

[04:44] * bandersnatch has joined #knownspace

[04:44] <bandersnatch> good bye Frank.